Special loads in Magnum cases..?

[codefour]

I have seen many references to people who have loaded magnum cases with to special case load. Example: Load a .44 Mag case with the same amount of powder as a .44 Special. Or, load a .357 Mag case witha .38 Special load.

Is this safe to do..? The reason I ask is I went through my reloading manuels and they never mention this. I was thinking will the larger Magnum case have too low pressure from the Special load.?

I would like to load a .44 Mag case to a special level to save my wrist, powder, gun life and also to have a nice/light target load.

Any help from the THR inmates would be appreciated. Thanks...

 

[murf]

it is not safe to do so imop. the different case volumes will give different pressures for a given amount of powder. i highly suggest you follow your reloading manuals when loading reduced, 44special-like, loads for your 44magnum.

the speer #14 manual has reduced loads for lead bullets. don't use 44 special data for jacketed bullets. you may get a bullet stuck in your barrel. the extra case volume may reduce bullet speed enough to do this.

if you want reduced loads then use a "special" case and use the "special" data. imop

murf

 

[flipajig]

Follow your loading manuals when doiing any load develpment
I also load for a 44 in SBH,TC,M94 Winchester
the TC and Winchester get full house loads my SBH gets fullhouse loads and a mild load for plinking.
I use W231 or HP38 and a cast pill 800 fps works great in my gun as for brass I also use mag brass
This works for me dont know about yours.

 

[helotaxi]

Most lead bullet loads between .357 and .38Spl are essentially the same until you get into the heavy gas-checked bullets that are meant to be pushed fast. I don't load .44 but I would assume that the same holds true and the Hornady manual confirms that assumption. I would not recommend loading jacketed bullets down because of the risk of sticking a bullet in the bore, as mentioned above but the difference in pressure with a special load in a special or magnum case within published special load data isn't going to be significant enough to make that a valid concern. Loading relatively expensive bullets to reduced velocities to save powder would be kind of silly anyway.

To make this work, you'll want a fast powder and preferably one that is position insensitive since you will probably have a lot of empty space in the case. I would look at Trail Boss. It is specifically made for light loads and it does a good job of filling the case. The other cool thing about it is that it is basically impossible to create an over-pressure load with it. You quite simply can't get enough of it in the case.

 

[Lost Sheep]

15% boost in powder charge

Case lengths of 44 Special vs 44 Magnum is 1.285" vs 1.160". Difference .125" or about 10%. Given that the web occupies some volume, and the body of the bullet occupies (just eyeballing it) perhaps .25", the volume difference between the Special and the Magnum Case (the free volume inside the cartridge case) would be;

PI times .215" squared times 0.935 for the magnum
PI times .215" squared times 0.810 for the special

for a ratio of 1.154:1 or a 15% difference in volume

Now for the tricky bit.

44 Special (by one of my manuals) runs as low as 11,000 CUP (Copper Units of Pressure). 44 Magnum runs as high as 40,000 CUP.

But, obviously, if you load a 44 Magnum cartridge case to Special pressures (11,000 to 18,000 but mostly around 14,000 CUP) with a powder that maintains that pressure for the same length of time it is maintained in a 44 Special casing, you are OK.

My opinion, to load 44 Magnum cartridges to 44 Special velocities safely, use the 44 Special recipe, boost the charge weight by 15% and go for it.

To test the theory that a 15% boost in charge weight will upscale a 44 Special recipe to a 44 Magnum cartridge case, and yield the same performance, try this: (for those of us who do not have pressure barrels or ballistics labs at our service)

Get a few 44 Special cases, load them up and chronograph them. Then put the same loading, bullet, primer, crimp strength, etc into a 44 Magnum case, but 15.4% more powder and chronograph those. Compare. If the velocities are the same, the hypothesis is proved.

Another solution is to seat the bullet 0.125" deeper. Except for the crimp, the deeper seating would make the loading in the Magnum case just like a Special. (assuming the web thickness is the same)

Internal ballistics is not rocket science. Close, perhaps, but this question should not be beyond us.

Regards

Lost Sheep

Edit: For extra caution, I would not try this with any powder that is not listed for BOTH Specials and Magnums for the same bullet. That is, if 44 mag lists W296 and 44 Spec does not, don't use W296. Likewise, if 44 Spec lists Bullseye and 44 Mag does not, don't use Bullseye. If 44 Spec lists Unique AND 44 Mag lists Unique, Unique would be OK.

Second caution: I would be comfortable with upscaling Special Loads to Magnum cases. I would do some more investigation before I downsized Magnum loads into Special cases. A lot more investigation. And keep those cartridges away from 44 Special handguns. A 44 Special case with 35,000 CUP is nothing to fool around with.

 

[gamestalker]

Your reloading manual will have reduced loads for magnum cartridges, it's all about the type and weight of powder used, as to what will determine the velocity. It is for this reason many hand loaders use the faster burning powders, as it allows them to down load to a minimum functional degree. But regarding your question, there are numerous powders that are listed for both Special loads and Magnum loads and most are probably of the faster burning types.

 

[rcmodel]

Is this safe to do..?

Yes it is safe to do.
As long as you don't use .38 or .44 Spl Starting loads, or less.

That much reduction in pressure "might" cause stuck bullets in the larger .357 or .44 Mag cases. Especially with jacketed bullets.

You would be perfectly safe using .38/44 Spl med-level to Max charge data in .357/.44 Mag cases.

Max pressure would still be less then the same load in the shorter cases, but even if it wasn't?
You are going to be shooting them in much stronger modern magnum revolvers.
Not 100 year old relics.

rc

 

[wanderinwalker]

I've loaded TONS of what would amount to warm .44 Special loads in .44 Magnum cases. Note, I've only done this with lead bullets and faster powders.

I picked a powder in the .44 Special and .44 Magnum section for the bullets I was using (240gr LSWF), in this case Winchester 231 specifically. Then I checked the maximum Special loading, compared it to the minimum Magnum loading and adjusted down in my Magnum cases. And I used a chronograph.

ONLY DO THIS USING MAGNUM CASES!

There is also a ton of pressure-tested data out there for Cowboy Action loads in just about every common and obsolete revolver cartridge you can think of, including the .357 and .44 Magnum. This should work as a starting point as well.

 

[Walkalong]

It's safe as long as you don't go too low. Midrange .44 Spl data and up is perfectly safe. Do not try to load W296/H110 to .44 Spl levels.

Lots of folks load to .44 Spl levels in mag cases.

 

[helotaxi]

According to the Hornady 8th, using the same lead bullet and the same powder, it takes either the same amount or 0.1gn LESS powder to achieve the same velocity from a .44mag as from a .44spl. The much shorter barrel used for the .44spl can explain most of this BUT it also indicates that the difference in case volume, most all of which is empty with both cartridges in light loads, is mostly irrelevant. For the .38/.357, the lowest listed .357mag loads are in some cases a full grain lower than than the lowest .38spl loads. These are lighter powder charges loaded in bigger cases in longer barrels without sticking a bullet.

To me that indicates that all the hysteria is much ado about nothing.

 

[Nevmavrick]

Not only is it safe, but can be recommended.
The idea of bumping the Special load up by 15% in the Magnum cases is a good one. The Specials are pressured about 15K and the Magnums are about 35+K so you're safe from the top, but the bottom loadfs are a little light...you could stick a bullet.
Use lead bullets (cheaper, too) and load in Magnum cases. The Special cases are shorter and, with any use, will leave a ring of lead and carbon in the chamber, that will need to be cleaned out. Fired with Mag cases, there's no such problem.
You should mark the cases in some way so you don't fire one load whern you want the other. I use a different brand for light loads than for Magnum loads.
When I load for .38 or .357 I load light in brass cases, nickle cases are used for mag loads. The same can be done for .44s.
Gave fun,
Gene

 

[Lost Sheep]

Another thing

The 15% boost to the lowest special loads, presumably will keep the minimum pressure at the normal 44 Special loads. If you have too little pressure inside the case, it will not seal against the chamber walls and you may get blow-by (gasses coming out around the cartridge, between the cartridge and the chamber walls).

Not considered as dangerous as too much pressure, but another point to consider about too little pressure, other than failing to make the bullet clear the bore.

Lost Sheep

edit: I also recommend you recalculate the 15% volume difference for yourself. My calculations in post #5 were not vetted, but were only quickly put down.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

To load a Special load in a Magnum case I usually charge the Max powder charge listed for the .38 Special in the .357 Magnum brass to compensate for the additional case space. It works perfectly and is not dangerous at all.

 

[ssyoumans]

I hate the carbon ring that forms when firing 38 specials in a 357 Magnum, so now I only shoot 357 magnum cases out of the SP 101 357 Magnum 3".

One of my favorite 38 Special +P loads was 158gr LSWC with 4.9 gr of Unique. It would generate 850fps out of the SP101.
Now, I use 357 Magnum cases, bumped it up by .3grs (less than 10%) to 5.3gr of Unqiue, and I get approximately the same velocity (963 fps) without the crud ring forming in the cylinder.

As people have mentioned before, work up your own loads carefully, and lead bullets are your best bet for any type of reduced loads. I'd stick with powders at Unique or FASTER.

 

[James2]

When loading light loads in 357 brass, I use the maximum load as listed for 38 spl with the powder and bullet of choice. I have shot hundreds of these with no problems. I have used lots of Unique for this application.

 

[Walkalong]

I load .357 cases with light loads all the time instead of using .38 brass. The difference in case capacity makes very little difference. Sometimes .1 Gr difference of a fast powder, or maybe .2 of a medium powder, maybe.

 

[Funshooter45]

Interesting that Lost Sheep came up with the 15% figure. I arrived at the same figure awhile back and it worked well. I occasionally also load some pretty mild loads usning .44 magnum brass. I simply don't have any Special brass. For the most part I always found load data in the manuals that gave suggested load data for reduced loads using the magnum cases. But then I bought a 4 lb canister of a long discontinued Vihta Vuori called N3SL that was made in the 90s specifically for Cowboy Action Shooting. It is not even listed in their own manual. I did some searching and found a refeerence from someone who had asked the VV people what load ranges to use. VV gave powder ranges for a couple of .45 LC bullets as well as 44 Spl loads. The powder worked extremely well in my .45 Colt, so I wanted to try it in the .44 Mag as well. I studied a lot of loads for various powders comparing .44 Spl loads and .44 Mag loads. I came up with a rule of theumb that equated to taking the max .44 Spl load and adding 15% to that to get a fairly mild .44 Mag load. Interestingly enough, this is pretty doggone close to the recommended .45 Colt charge weight for most powders as well. When you think about it, that makes a lot of sense. Anyway, I tried 12% above the .44 Special load and I didn't stick any bullets. The cases were a little bit sooty so I bumped it up by about 0.2 gr and ended up with a great shooting load.

 

[RidgwayCO]

In .357 Magnum I load 158gr LSWC bullets to .38 Special velocities using Trail Boss. Fills the case nicely and gives good accuracy. It's also impossible to put in a double charge of powder... I don't load for the .44 Magnum anymore, but I'm sure this would work just as well.

 

[OldStumps]

I'm currently working up lead loads with a range ME limitation of 500 ftlbs for a Casull .454. I will also load same 250gr HC lead in the 45LC I shoot as well. I'm using 2400 and have come from 19 gr down to 14.5 to get to the appropriate velocity of 940fps. The 19.0 grains were wonderfully stout in the Casull, but was getting leading. I will make use of the 15% solution when I drop back to the 45LC loads. Interesting to see if that works or if I need to bump things up. The case length is different by .1".

I have read and believe that commercial is the best way to go for high velocity/high energy rounds in the Casull. Range ammo though is pretty safe and straightforward at much reduced levels. Appreciate the numbers.

More and more I appreciate having spent $90 on a Shooting Chrony chronograph. I get good relative numbers for comparison and know where I am at every round fired.

 

[Funshooter45]

I'm not sure I would apply the 15% figure to .454 vs .45 Colt without some deeper research. But come to think about it, it's sort of in the ballpark of what I have used before. The difference here though is that there are gobs of published loads for really stout .45 Colt and .454 Casull loads. I have loaded some screaming hot loads in .45 Colt brass that far exceed the published "Ruger only" loads. But that was for my 5 shot BFR revolver chambered for .454. Nowadays though I stick to using .454 cases for that revolver no matter if they are mild or wild loads.

I disagree with the statement of only using commercial ammo for the hot .454 Casull loads. I have loaded some pretty mild stuff as well as some screaming wrist breaking stuff for the .454. Limiting yourself to factory ammo means you are limiting yourself to a few bullet weights that might not fit your needs. I like W296 powder in the Casull for the hot loads, but I have used a lot of others too. But I have been able to experiment with bullets that weighed between 240 gr and 355 gr to figure out what I liked the best.

 

[Eb1]

Use Trail Boss or a loading of 9.0 grains of Unique under a 240 grain bullet. Look up .44 Mag data in the 800-1050 fps range.

I have found Trail Boss to be some great stuff. Shoots very consistent for me.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I'm not all that impressed with Trail Boss as I was in the beginning. It's not bad but nowhere near as good as all the hype heaped on it. It has it's place in Cowboy Action ammo because it's impossible to double charge and fills the large Black Powder cases but IMO, that's it. (JMHO so don't hate on me)

 

[Lost Sheep]

The 15% was only a ballpark. Do calculate more rigorously.

I'm not sure I would apply the 15% figure to .454 vs .45 Colt without some deeper research. But come to think about it, it's sort of in the ballpark of what I have used before. The difference here though is that there are gobs of published loads for really stout .45 Colt and .454 Casull loads. I have loaded some screaming hot loads in .45 Colt brass that far exceed the published "Ruger only" loads. But that was for my 5 shot BFR revolver chambered for .454. Nowadays though I stick to using .454 cases for that revolver no matter if they are mild or wild loads.

I disagree with the statement of only using commercial ammo for the hot .454 Casull loads. I have loaded some pretty mild stuff as well as some screaming wrist breaking stuff for the .454. Limiting yourself to factory ammo means you are limiting yourself to a few bullet weights that might not fit your needs. I like W296 powder in the Casull for the hot loads, but I have used a lot of others too. But I have been able to experiment with bullets that weighed between 240 gr and 355 gr to figure out what I liked the best.

As I said in post 12, the 15% figure was just quickly worked out. As I put in post #5, if you want to duplicate the performance of a load from a smaller case in a larger one, measure (or calculate) the volume difference yourself. (Best way is to fill a case with water UP TO WHERE THE BASE OF THE BULLET WILL BE and figure the ratio. Apply that ratio to the powder charge. I figure you will get the same pressure and maybe a smidgen more velocity (on account of the fact there is more powder there and may maintain that pressure for a little longer than less powder in the smaller case.)

Use ONLY powders that have been laboratory tested in both cases (for a little extra assurance of safety).

This is intended to produce the same ballistics out of the larger case that were originally produced in the smaller case. So, if you had .45 Schofield loading data and wanted to produce the same performance out of the .460 S&W, just run the calculations. You will find a lot bigger difference than 15%, I imagine. But the pressure should be the Schofield pressure.

Lost Sheep

 

[OldStumps]

I disagree with the statement of only using commercial ammo for the hot .454 Casull loads. I have loaded some pretty mild stuff as well as some screaming wrist breaking stuff for the .454. Limiting yourself to factory ammo means you are limiting yourself to a few bullet weights that might not fit your needs. I like W296 powder in the Casull for the hot loads, but I have used a lot of others too. But I have been able to experiment with bullets that weighed between 240 gr and 355 gr to figure out what I liked the best.

Thanks for that. I had two boxes of FA 240gr JHP that were simply amazing to shoot. I compared with Hornady 240gr JHP and they were darn close. As well the 300gr Hornady JHP is wonderfully stout, and while I think I could do things cheaper, my chrono shows very consistent numbers. I have lots of both and really want to spend more time in my indoor range than outdoor so most of what I do going forward is range ammo from reloading standpoint.

I may take the plunge and shoot some of those 350+gr hard cast with GC some day but for now I'll keep things light on the reloading end. I clean after every trip so no big deal shooting .45LC in my Raging Bull. I have lots of that too so better to reload than not.

Thanks again.

 

[psyshack]

Do not down load mag. brass! If you want to shoot 38 sp or +P then load that brass up right.

If you don't like the results of say .38 sp or +P shot out of your mag. rated pistol buy a .38 tack driver.

Down loading mags. can be done, and is done by folks. BUT you can get squibs, hang fires or the can't hit anything double pop's. Which are like squib's that clear themselves.

When I was at my range last weekend there was a group of guy's having the above issues. Down loading .44, .357 and .50 BMG........