Special Operations Command looks at the 6.5mm...

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6.5 has better down range ballistics. I'm waiting for the Army to adopt a new cartridge. That will be my next bolt gun. Creedmoor, Grendel, 260, makes no difference to me. That will be the one that lives for the next 50 years.
 
I can remember reading about the virutes of the 260 years ago. But it took me a long time to come around, I'm now a believer. At 1st glance the 260 and 6.5 Creedmoor seem more similar than they really are. The 260 was designed with medium game in mind with bullets in the 100-120 gr range. Target shooters discovered that high BC bullets in the 140 gr range did amazing things, but needed custom barrels with fast twists and long throats. The longer 140 gr bullets take up too much powder space if seated deep enough to fit in a standard chamber and you give up too much speed.

The 6.5 Creed case is slightly modified to take longer bullets without taking up too much powder space. Factory 6.5 barrels are designed for the heavier bullets. A custom built 260 with handloads will do exactly the same thing, but it is just a lot easier for most people to just buy the 6.5.

The thing that is most amazing to me is that both rounds duplicate the 6.5X55 which was introduced in 1881. The 7X57 came out in 1883. It seems that after almost 140 years of smokeless powder cartridges we haven't really come up with anything better than the 2 originals.
 
I wouldn't have thought that they'd go smaller than 7.62mm NATO. Guess the 6.5mm has a lot going for it:

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/...260-remington-new-semiautomatic-sniper-rifle/

It would actually make a lot of sense for the military to replace 7.62 bullets with 6.5 bullets to whatever degree possible. A smaller, lighter bullet means less material used to manufacture, means a savings. Even if the savings is just a few pennies a round, given how much ammo the military needs in a year, the cost savings would be significant.

I don't foresee the 5.56 round ever being replaced for general infantry duties for this very reason.
 
It depends on the intended ranges and in what platforms.

The .308/7.62x51 is used in light machineguns that depend on penetrating moderate cover and vehicles which at shorter ranges the 6.5 may not do as well though its higher BC means it doesn't do too much worse.
Sharing the same cartridge with other platforms like a marksmans rifle simplifies logistics. So even if you want the marksman's rifle in 6.5 you have to consider the LMGs too.
So would they move the machineguns to 6.5 or would they make logistics more complex?
And if they move the LMGs to 6.5 what targets that they destroy now might fair better if being shot with a 6.5 LMG instead?
The LMG role for .308 in the military is arguably the more important one than the marksmans role.
 
It depends on the intended ranges and in what platforms.

The .308/7.62x51 is used in light machineguns that depend on penetrating moderate cover and vehicles which at shorter ranges the 6.5 may not do as well though its higher BC means it doesn't do too much worse.
Sharing the same cartridge with other platforms like a marksmans rifle simplifies logistics. So even if you want the marksman's rifle in 6.5 you have to consider the LMGs too.
So would they move the machineguns to 6.5 or would they make logistics more complex?
And if they move the LMGs to 6.5 what targets that they destroy now might fair better if being shot with a 6.5 LMG instead?
The LMG role for .308 in the military is arguably the more important one than the marksmans role.

I'm not military, so I don't know the answer. If a target can't be defeated by 6.5 bullets through an LMG, wouldn't they just step up the game to a dedicated anti-material gun?
 
Has the 6.5 CM been tested in a full-auto application, or even semi-auto? The reason I ask is that the .260 Rem is identical to the .308 Win case up to the start of the shoulder so that case geometry has been proven in full-auto firearms. The 6.5 CM case has about half the taper angle to the shoulder compared to the .308 Win family of cartridges. The .223 Rem has an even more aggressive taper compared to the .308 Win and that has also been proven in full-auto applications. My point is that I'm wondering about extraction issues with the 6.5 CM in a full auto application. The rate of fire would be a factor of course and I'm sure that it will all be figured out but I'm just curious.

As for the .308 Win vs. the 6.5 CM, if you hunt with a solid copper bullet I still think the nod goes to the .308 Win, but if you're using cup and core bullets then the 6.5 CM starts to look good out past 350 yards if you compare 140gr 6.5mm to 165gr .308 cal bullets at typical velocities. I haven't compared the heaviest for caliber loads for hunting i.e. 140gr 6.5mm vs. 180gr .308 cal since I don't hunt with a 180gr .308 cal bullet.
 
I think the military could convert to 6.5 from 30 caliber and do fine with LMG but I don't believe they will. Lots of inertia in the system with 30 caliber and all the different types of rounds they use in that caliber.
 
6.5 has better down range ballistics. I'm waiting for the Army to adopt a new cartridge. That will be my next bolt gun. Creedmoor, Grendel, 260, makes no difference to me. That will be the one that lives for the next 50 years.

I'd love to see the caliber used, but the bigger problem is the NATO standardization and getting our allies on board.
 
Spec Op's have had their choice of weapons since Korea..

They can have anything they request.
A bunch of them used the M-14 after the AR's came out.
Same with the 1911 opposed to the P-92.

What they want, they get.

I'm talking about the caliber, not the platform. Yes they get just about any weapon system they want, but calibers are still standardized.
 
True enough for infantry,
Spec Op's get what they want,

The 6.5 is an excellent choice.

Long range, HARD hit's and about as accurate as you can get.

Best of all worlds is the 408 CheyTac.
 
I can remember reading about the virutes of the 260 years ago. But it took me a long time to come around, I'm now a believer. At 1st glance the 260 and 6.5 Creedmoor seem more similar than they really are. The 260 was designed with medium game in mind with bullets in the 100-120 gr range. Target shooters discovered that high BC bullets in the 140 gr range did amazing things, but needed custom barrels with fast twists and long throats. The longer 140 gr bullets take up too much powder space if seated deep enough to fit in a standard chamber and you give up too much speed.

The 6.5 Creed case is slightly modified to take longer bullets without taking up too much powder space. Factory 6.5 barrels are designed for the heavier bullets. A custom built 260 with handloads will do exactly the same thing, but it is just a lot easier for most people to just buy the 6.5.

The thing that is most amazing to me is that both rounds duplicate the 6.5X55 which was introduced in 1881. The 7X57 came out in 1883. It seems that after almost 140 years of smokeless powder cartridges we haven't really come up with anything better than the 2 originals.
I don't have my books handy, but if the 6.5x55 came out in 1881, and the 7x57 in 1883 they would have been black powder guns. The first smokeless was the 8mm French in 1886.
 
What I have found interesting in this, as opposed to the other solicitations in the past, is they are NOT considering MG's for this solicitation, from what I have seen.

Not that many of the guys have been using 308win sniper rifles for several years now anyway, but that has always been an issue - matching ammo from grunt to gunner... Not any more, it seems.
 
True enough for infantry,
Spec Op's get what they want,

The 6.5 is an excellent choice.

Long range, HARD hit's and about as accurate as you can get.

Best of all worlds is the 408 CheyTac.

Exactly, there isn't anything to read into this as far as I can tell. This is a sources sought notice: USSOCOM is putting it's feelers out to size up COTS solutions that might meet it's need for a semi-auto sniper rifle package in one of the two major 6.5 offerings. USSOCOM gets what USSOCOM wants, this doesn't have anything to do with machine guns, Big Army or Big anyone else. It looks like they are interested in going to a system where they have two main veins of sniper rifles, a 6.5mm semi, and a larger longer range bolt gun in .300 or .338 Norma Mag. Probably not a bad idea for a small group that doesn't have to worry about million man logistics, or matching NATO, will not happen anytime soon on the larger stage.
 
I can remember reading about the virutes of the 260 years ago. But it took me a long time to come around, I'm now a believer. At 1st glance the 260 and 6.5 Creedmoor seem more similar than they really are. The 260 was designed with medium game in mind with bullets in the 100-120 gr range. Target shooters discovered that high BC bullets in the 140 gr range did amazing things, but needed custom barrels with fast twists and long throats. The longer 140 gr bullets take up too much powder space if seated deep enough to fit in a standard chamber and you give up too much speed.

The 6.5 Creed case is slightly modified to take longer bullets without taking up too much powder space. Factory 6.5 barrels are designed for the heavier bullets. A custom built 260 with handloads will do exactly the same thing, but it is just a lot easier for most people to just buy the 6.5.

The thing that is most amazing to me is that both rounds duplicate the 6.5X55 which was introduced in 1881. The 7X57 came out in 1883. It seems that after almost 140 years of smokeless powder cartridges we haven't really come up with anything better than the 2 originals.

I think you are off a bit on your dates; the 6.5 came out in 1894 and the 7x57 came out in 1892.
 
Don't put a whole lot of faith in these things moving forward to fruition. SOCOM elements take at least a cursory look at just about anything that comes down the pike. They are supplied and budgeted differently than the rest of the DOD with a different procurement process. And not just for weapons. I was with that command for over 20 years and did my share of R&D through that time on things as boring as boots, clothing, and individual equipment to cooler things like night vision, weapons, and camouflage systems. Most items didn't go anywhere because they proved unsuitable or couldn't be justified by expense versus increased benefits or due to logistical support issues for the given piece of equipment.
 
If SOCOM wants a new battle rifle in 7.62 they get it - and did - the FN SCAR. While no longer buying any more of them, I don't believe they "sold them off" and remain in the racks for use when needed.

Same with pistols - if they have an op that requires some deniability they buy and use Glocks. Obviously Big Army did not. So it goes, if they perceive an issue might be solved with an alternative round, then they look for an answer and participate in it's development or just buy it off the shelf.

Nobody anticipated 6.8 SPC, it never became an US official round, yet there it is, 100% SF and AMU designed and used. I would not expect it to replace 7.62 as a machine gun round in Big Army any more than the lightweight 6.5's. When you move into crew served weapons the requirements for anti material become more important - and 7.62 comes in armor piercing, gets mounted on vehicles, and can be used at 800m+. The general infantryman isn't even trained or kept up in skills to do that - only dedicated long distance shooters get that role and they are few and far between. Normally a few in the Battalion assigned to specific missions as a surgical tool, not the hundreds humping guns on security patrols.

There is a reason for inertia in Big Army and why they don't keep flipping cartridges and weapons for the latest greatest. It takes time to field them and then train the shooters. The more you have using the system the longer it takes. There are tens of thousands of MG's as organic weapons, and 90% are NOT in combat units but all the command and service support. The incremental advantages of one cartridge over another when used in the defense simply don't materialize on a day to day basis. It's the single sniper team specifically and technically held to a high skill level who take advantage of it.

For the most part MG teams are shooting at opponents with the same level of weaponry - or less - a bullet with 25 grains more weight in armor piercing and tracer will deliver more impact and direct fire better than the lastest SOCOM sniper rifle of the month. We give the special unit soldiers a bigger plate to handle, they need the tailored weapons and rounds, but by no means are we going to switch over wholesale to those just because. They don't get Eggs Benedict in the chow line and I wouldn't expect the rank and file to get them either. It's the civilian who has an overfocused interest in exotic superweapons who create the demand to have something just like it and they push for having them for the presumed "superior" ability - to enhance their status collecting Operator Chic.

If it's a bid under SOCOM its usually something that will never go Big Army. Whatever it is they are looking at will remain a niche item. When Big Army hands them something to test as part of development, it's usually early on and often we never hear about it when it's asked "What did this do better?" In one specific case, we did - and the shooters across the board said the SCAR was cool and all, but it didn't launch bullets out the muzzle with any usable increase in lethality. If anything it was another gun to learn how to shoot under stress and that in and of itself wasn't a plus. Nothing game changing there, so SOCOM shelved it.

We could very well be discussing this as a footnote in 5 years, "Yeah they tried 6.5/260 but -"
 
What I have found interesting in this, as opposed to the other solicitations in the past, is they are NOT considering MG's for this solicitation, from what I have seen.
Perhaps they're ruminating about replacing .300WM, which never had a machine gun. The .260 and 6.5CM essentially duplicate the .300WM trajectory.
 
Slater wrote:
Guess the 6.5mm has a lot going for it:

The military and the intelligence community are constantly doing research on specialty weapons. When I was in graduate school, one of my professors got a contract for some work on a potential replacement for the 5.56x45 round. It was entirely a "paper exercise", that is, we didn't make or shoot any ammunition, we just did computations and analysis. We looked at 6.0, 6.5 and 7.0 millimeter configurations in comparison with the current 5.56. In the end, the report concluded that an intermediate case round firing a bullet in the 100 grain class at a velocity of at least 2,800 fps was an optimal solution to the requirements specified in the contract.

What struck me later was the realization that for 6.5mm to be optimized in a military round for an assault rifle compatabile with Army Training and Doctrine (not a sniper or specialst round) was going to require the development of a new case with a different case head diameter than was currently being made and the costs incident to such development made it unlikley such a round would ever be selected.
 
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