Speer 50AE 325gn bullets in 500 Magnum, max pressure/velocity

[buck460XVR]

Strange how bonded rifle bullets are so much tougher, but this doesn’t carry over to pistols?

Didn't say anything about the toughness of Bonded bullets.....just that this was the construction of Uni-Core handgun bullets. Deep Curls and Gold Dota are also Speer bonded bullets and are very tough. Their 300gr Deep Curl is my preferred bullet for deer in my .460. But it is designed for .460 pressures and velocities. I have also used Speer's 260gr Uni-Core for reduced recoil loads at .45 Colt velocities, because this is what they are designed for. Speer says the same thing about them as they do about the OP's bullet. Use 'em at the pressure and velocity they are designed for.

One thing I don’t get, perhaps because mine is an automatic, how does a 350 grain round shoulder produce more cone erosion and top strap cutting than a 350 grain flat meplat?

Has to do with the gases that rush by the bullet as it passes thru the cylinder gap on it's way to the forcing cone. Thin jackets over a swagged core under too much pressure can deform and allow more gas to get by and thus erode more. Folks with no experience reloading for a specific platform should limit their advice if they have little or no knowledge of said platform.

If the erosion was from the higher volumes of slow powder for the lighter weight bullets, why would bullet construction matter, these jackets being two thousandths thicker than Hornady’s?

It's not always about thickness, but alloy used. Think of the Brinell hardness of hard cast bullets.

Would not both types of bullets be equally as detrimental to the forcing cone?

Lighter bullets will erode more with slow burning powders because of their shape. They are shorter, thus allow more gas to bypass them in the cylinder gap. This is the issue with 110 gr bullets when pushed hard in .357 revolvers. Lighter bullets are also easier to move thus they have more unburnt/burning powder behind them as they pass thru the forcing cone.

I would also assume flame cutting the top strap would have more to do with the “fuel” than the “tires”?

This is true when appropriate bullets are used. Top strap cutting and forcing cone erosion is just the nature of the beast, but can be accelerated and become excessive with poor reloading practices, such as using inappropriate bullets.

I have heard indications that Lil’ Gun powder burns with much higher heat than H-110 or CFE BLK, and this may have been a major contributor to the wear. Is the true?

What it is with Lil' Gun, I don't know. It does produce significantly more heat in my guns, both revolvers and handgun caliber carbines, than other magnum powders. There is also evidence of it promoting excessive and premature erosion of forcing cones and barrels. Since I've seen no advantage of using it over other magnum powders, I don't use it anymore. I want my guns to last as long as possible.


And, hey. These aren’t arguments.

I got questions. I’m just lookin’ for answers, and you’re here right now.
They’re is an elderly gentleman being consumed by dialysis who wishes to unload his XVR(and his Sportster, but I have kids yet.) to me. I was the only one to smile after shooting it, instead of crying about my hand.
Since I have no ambitions of hunting Yaks or Yetis, it would be another FunGun. But not if I ruin it with fire..

Then I suggest you take the advice of powder makers and bullet manufacturers as opposed to random folks on the internet.

 

[horsey300]

Oh, I think the vast majority of giant pistol ownership is exactly akin to this.
That’s what mine is for...
Though there is a LeSabre I hunt occasionally. An old rutty one, with a V-8...

Strange how bonded rifle bullets are so much tougher, but this doesn’t carry over to pistols?

One thing I don’t get, perhaps because mine is an automatic, how does a 350 grain round shoulder produce more cone erosion and top strap cutting than a 350 grain flat meplat?

If the erosion was from the higher volumes of slow powder for the lighter weight bullets, why would bullet construction matter, these jackets being two thousandths thicker than Hornady’s?

Would not both types of bullets be equally as detrimental to the forcing cone?

I would also assume flame cutting the top strap would have more to do with the “fuel” than the “tires”?

I have heard indications that Lil’ Gun powder burns with much higher heat than H-110 or CFE BLK, and this may have been a major contributor to the wear. Is the true?


And, hey. These aren’t arguments.

I got questions. I’m just lookin’ for answers, and you’re here right now.
They’re is an elderly gentleman being consumed by dialysis who wishes to unload his XVR(and his Sportster, but I have kids yet.) to me. I was the only one to smile after shooting it, instead of crying about my hand.
Since I have no ambitions of hunting Yaks or Yetis, it would be another FunGun. But not if I ruin it with fire...

Until the yetis try hunting you

 

[Demi-human]

Thin jackets over a swagged core under too much pressure can deform and allow more gas to get by and thus erode more. Folks with no experience reloading for a specific platform should limit their advice if they have little or no knowledge of said platform.

So both the Speer and Hornady are unsuited for the 500S&W despite being loaded as such from the factory, and other loading companies, and in spite of the Speer’s manual, but not Hornady’s?

Platform? No, I don’t operate platforms. Or tactical my jelly rolls. A revolver is a revolver. Nothing happens to a 460 that doesn’t happen to a greater or lesser degree in any other revolver.
50AE was the question, and it presenter was the most effective answerer here.

Advice? Where? Beside precise questions, where have I provided advice?

I’ll continue to have pointed conversation with likeminded individuals over the course of several months, thanks though...

That came out harsh. I do appreciate the information you have provided.

 

[buck460XVR]

50AE was the question, and it presenter was the most effective answerer here.

Iffin I remember correctly, the question was about whether bullets intended for .50 AE should be loaded to the max pressure of a .500S&W.

Since your memory seems a tad foggy, I'll show you the title of this thread to refresh it

Speer 50AE 325gn bullets in 500 Magnum, max pressure/velocity

I said no based on my experience and backed up my answer with corroborating statements from the manufacturer of said bullets(Speer). You obviously know more than Speer, so anything I can add is moot.

Enjoy your jelly rolls.

 

[Demi-human]

Since your memory seems a tad foggy,

No, my auto correct is a bit oppressive. Very astute observation though.

I heard back from Speer and all they said was that they have only tested it at 50AE pressures.

Insider information only he and I know about, not found anywhere else, because they didn’t care if one guy blew his hand off, or as you say, was eaten by a Hippopotamus.
Not backed by any personal experience, or photos, online, for the masses, upthread perhaps.

Enjoy your jelly rolls.

I do love ‘em.
Don’t trip over your soapbox, er, platform...

 

[Mr.Revolverguy]

This is an awesome thread I love the S&W 500. I have a ton of these freedom pills purchased them 4 to 5 years ago but have been slowly getting rid of them but may try them now. Speer actually spoke with me on the phone years back and the person I spoke with had a ton of passion around not using these bullets AT any 500 Magnum pressure. It was stated that jacket is thin by design and the forcing cone has the capability of ripping the jacket off upon impact.

 

[__steve__]

..of passion around not using these bullets AT any 500 Magnum pressure. It was stated that jacket is thin by design and the forcing cone has the capability of ripping the jacket off upon impact.

Thanks for info sir.

I imagine if the jacket is shredding away at this point, excessive erosion is happening

 

[Mr.Revolverguy]

As a matter of fact I was told by Speer also that was another reason to stop using the bullet because severe erosion would happen needless to say I only fired 10 rounds through the revolver 5 for me 5 for a buddy I tore the rest of them down and the bullets have been sitting on the shelf since 2003. Good thing though got a friend who got a 50AE yesterday who will get these as a late christmas gift

 

[Mr.Revolverguy]

All I want to share a story from back in 2003 I am little embarrassed by. I was encouraged to share it by someone as a lesson learned which benefits everyone. Manuals are critically important and reloading is a relaxing very rewarding activity for me like many others. But we all should make sure we are following the base rules they are really simple. Anyway enough preaching and my experience and story behind what I said above.

This is what I shared with someone else.

It is ok to ask, what I did not tell was the back story behind a HUGE lesson learned. Back in 2003 when this revolver first came out I was one of the first crazy's to get one. I loaded up some of these rounds and met my buddy at the range. The first 5 rounds no issue, I hand the revolver to him well established shooter and something hit me violently in gut. I thought nothing about it, thought maybe it was mud or something from the back stop we were only 10 yards away. As he walked over to hand me the revolver smiling from ear to ear he said what's that. I looked down and thought oh **** a ricochet as the copper jacket looks like a whole bullet was stuck in my jacket. After dissecting things, luckily it was winter and I had on a big thick jacket and was standing far to the side so no penetration. We immediately stopped I called smith and wesson and sent it back to them thinking it was out of time. The gunsmith called me which was so cool because he said the revolver is not out of time and by the way I am the guy that put this together. He went on to say sort of rare to see something you put out come back. Well anyway I was very truthful about the reloads etc he said NOOOOOO not that bullet to thin he said S&W tested it, he went on to say why do you think Speer has no load data, we have already talked to Speer about it and they do not intend to make a 500 Magnum bullet. That jacket sheered off at the forcing cone he informed me. He then said take as many pictures send them to me so I can share with Speer, they really should put out warning. The bullet goes thru a violent impact in a revolver unlike the Desert Eagle. I really thought they wanted the pictures for defense purposes if I tried to sue (which never crossed my mind) but I still sent pictures of the bullet used, thin jacket in my coat, recipe I used etc. To MY FREAKING surprise which scared me to death I got a call from Speer while at work. This is when the technician told me please sir do not use our bullets in 500 magnum, they can't handle the violent impact into the forcing cone, then Speer told me it will also damage your revolver in forcing cone erosion. By the way this was an outdoor NRA range mud dirt with cut up rubber as a backstop so I knew it wasn't a ricochet just thought man the 500 is a beast and kicking mud and rubber back at us. I have a picture of a round I reloaded and wrote on never fire as a keep sake and lesson learned. This is why manuals are so important. After this even Speer for a long time did have a warning on their website about not using these bullets in 500 magnum. Then when they finally published Speer manual #14 they took it down because they had a proper 500 magnum bullet then, of which they have branded 50 S&W UCSP 350gr to make sure people knew this freedom pill was the right one for the big 500.

I know this revolver was not out of time because S&W did nothing to it and sent it back to me and many rounds later it is still going strong to this day. It has had plenty of chances for something to go wrong but nothing ever has and now the revolver is 17 years old now and this is what it looks like today.



Listen I hope this helps someone think twice about changing components if the manufacturer says not to, who cares if we believe it is lawyer speak or not just don't.

 

[buck460XVR]

As a matter of fact I was told by Speer also that was another reason to stop using the bullet because severe erosion would happen

...this is exactly what I quoted from the Speer manual in post #22. Again, folks need to weigh the risk of damage to their gun and the saving of a few cents on projectiles.

Nothing happens to a 460 that doesn’t happen to a greater or lesser degree in any other revolver.

There is one thing that happens that is much greater.....pressure. If and when you get your .460 from the friend, you will quickly learn that reloading for it can be different than other handgun calibers. I load for several other handgun calibers, including the .44 mag. Even ol' Inspector Harold Francis Callahan's infamous "most powerful handgun in the world" only creates about half the chamber pressure. It definitely is a different beast and I hope sometime you get the chance to enjoy/discover it.

I imagine if the jacket is shredding away at this point, excessive erosion is happening

There is also possible separation in the barrel as the thinner jackets are tore off from the friction in the barrel. Premature and excessive erosion again, can be caused by several factors. Deformation in the chamber and from entering the forcing cone is a coupla of them. More to many bullets than most know. One reason Speer changed the name of it's handgun bullets intended for hunting from it's line of Gold Dots intended for SD. Exact same process to make, but different jacket. Folks assumed they were all the same, but they weren't. So the name change, even tho it created some initial confusion. Same goes for the Hornady line of .45 caliber bullets. Thinner jackets for calibers other than .454 and .460 and strong advice to stick with their "MAG" line for those calibers.....and yes, they are more expensive.

I understand at times like these of component shortages, we all have grasped at straws when the shelves are empty. Sometimes we are not always aware there are differences. Sometime we just get the wrong thing. At .50AE velocities and pressure, those bullets will be fine, but the OP was about max .500 Mag pressure, for which they may not be fine. My advice comes from my experience and the knowledge of the manufacturer of those bullets. Not cute little snarky remarks in attempt to somehow make myself look superior, but an an honest attempt to help you make safe ammo. Your gun, your choice.

 

[__steve__]

Unfortunately SAAMI can’t include this in the “unsafe combinations” list because such a combination isn’t recognized as an actual cartridge.

 

[Demi-human]

but an an honest attempt to help you make safe ammo.

This, I can appreciate, and have no doubts of.