Spinning

[BowerR64]

no no not that kind of spinning i learned my lesson on that one.

Cylinder spinning.

In this video "Quick and the dead" in the store :43 seconds he pulls out that "Customized new model Army .44" when he spins the cylinder it really spins for along time.

I figured bearings were added or something just for show for the movie and that it could never get like that without serious mods.

I went to Phils monday and he has a Remington that i swear spins that long and i couldnt see anything he has done to it. I asked him and all he says is "WD40" wich i find hard to believe.

Polished cylinder pin? polished the inside of the cylinder?

Another thing that i found was with most of my revolvers if i tilt the barrel up and spin it i get this weird out of balance thing that happens, if i tilt the barrel down and spin it it spins pretty smooth. His wasnt like that

Im wondering if maybe mine arnt timmed right, my hand spring is to stiff or something isnt setup properly. I know its not important for gun function but i just want to know

 

[CraigC]

There are some goofy things with the plot and special effects but I love that movie. They did a fantastic job with the characters, costumes, guns and gunleather. That said, the scene you posted gives me the willies every time I watch it. Typical Hollywood gun mishandling. Spinning the cylinder that fast is bad enough but stopping it by cocking it is horrific. If anybody did that with one of my sixguns, they'd probably get knocked out.

 

[BowerR64]

Well i wonder if im not cleaning my cylinder pins right or something.

His cylinder spun so smooth that i wondered about all of mine. His spun like that silver remington it was like butter.

I didnt stop it like that i just spun it to hear that zing noise.

Then i wondered if he did something to it that would prevent cylinder lockup from fouling and thats why it spins so nice.

 

[CraigC]

It's a movie, for all we know they took the hand out so it would spin freely and dubbed in the sound. Ain't no tellin'. Most the time the factory hand spring is too heavy for it to that spin freely.

 

[Wayne-O]

 

[BowerR64]

It's a movie, for all we know they took the hand out so it would spin freely and dubbed in the sound. Ain't no tellin'. Most the time the factory hand spring is too heavy for it to that spin freely.

Well Phil didnt remove the hand, his was fully functional and butter smooth like that one.

Again when i first seen that movie i thought it was movie magic but Phils gun was the real deal and now i wonder about the gun in that movie.

If i hadnt seen phils do it with such precision i wouldnt even question it. I believe his is just a basic 1858 Euro Arms.

 

[Tommygunn]

Watched the video.
That is not really a long time for a cylinder to spin. It was given a very hefty twirl there.
That is easily possible for most any SA revolver of that type.
~BUT~
I don't advise doing it. That ratcheting sound? It's caused by the hand or pawl battering against the rear of the cylinder and it does a job on the hand spring, which is usually a flat metal bar spring. You're wearing it out double-quick.
And stopping it like that by cocking, as previously stated, is also bad juju for a gun.

 

[45 Dragoon]

It's all how you tune the hand spring. For a cylinder to freespin like that, throwby is almost certain!! If your friend Phil put two rounds in the cyl. ( 2 next to each other), I promise, it would have throwby probs. The hand spring tension is what keeps throwby from happening so it has a duel function. It insures hand /ratchet engagement and acts as a brake for the spinning cyl. Tuners find a happy medium for reliable operation / ease of rotation.

Ya just gotta leave the movie stuff in tha movies.



45 Dragoon

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

It's all how you tune the hand spring. For a cylinder to freespin like that, throwby is almost certain!! If your friend Phil put two rounds in the cyl. ( 2 next to each other), I promise, it would have throwby probs. The hand spring tension is what keeps throwby from happening so it has a duel function. It insures hand /ratchet engagement and acts as a brake for the spinning cyl. Tuners find a happy medium for reliable operation / ease of rotation.

+1! The hand spring has to put a reasonable amount of forward force on the hand. If it does not, the cylinder can throw by. One of my Colts had a hand spring that was too light when I bought it. Somebody had 'tuned it'. And yup, I could get it to throw by every time if I tried. Starting to cock the hammer briskly, but then letting up before completing the stroke would result in the cylinder throwing by every time. The hand has to put a little bit of 'braking action' on the cylinder so this does not happen. I replaced the hand spring and the problem went away. The gun never throws by anymore. When I spin the cylinder on a Colt (or replica) I want to hear the hand sing nice and loud as it does its job of slowing down the rotation. I don't want it to whisper. Of course, I don't stand there and spin cylinders most of the time. Just to find out if the hand spring is properly tensioned.

 

[BowerR64]

+1! The hand spring has to put a reasonable amount of forward force on the hand. If it does not, the cylinder can throw by. One of my Colts had a hand spring that was too light when I bought it. Somebody had 'tuned it'. And yup, I could get it to throw by every time if I tried. Starting to cock the hammer briskly, but then letting up before completing the stroke would result in the cylinder throwing by every time. The hand has to put a little bit of 'braking action' on the cylinder so this does not happen. I replaced the hand spring and the problem went away. The gun never throws by anymore. When I spin the cylinder on a Colt (or replica) I want to hear the hand sing nice and loud as it does its job of slowing down the rotation. I don't want it to whisper. Of course, I don't stand there and spin cylinders most of the time. Just to find out if the hand spring is properly tensioned.

Right i do that also but i also do it after ive shot a full cylinder to keep the fouling moving. I found that if i just sit the gun down and let it cool it will lock up the cylinder. If i keep it moving the fouling will cool and work its self out insted of locking up as it cools.

I also spin the cylinder after i clean it and lube the pin to work the oil into the whole length of the rod.

I dont notice any exsessive wear

I have had a spring break on my Rogers and spencer and a bolt but it wasnt from this it was from trying to force the action to move when it had a cap jam (early BP shooting days for me)

I notice if the spring is to stiff or bent wrong the hand sticks out a little to far when its half cocked and it makes it hard to get the cylinder back in.

Watched the video.
That is not really a long time for a cylinder to spin. It was given a very hefty twirl there.
That is easily possible for most any SA revolver of that type.
~BUT~
I don't advise doing it. That ratcheting sound? It's caused by the hand or pawl battering against the rear of the cylinder and it does a job on the hand spring, which is usually a flat metal bar spring. You're wearing it out double-quick.
And stopping it like that by cocking, as previously stated, is also bad juju for a gun.

Im not to sure he stopped it with the hammer though, the scene cut just as he cocked it and the sound stopped. First you see the gun closeup then cut its panned out and you see him cock it.

 

[45 Dragoon]

It stopped because he cocked it, the bolt slamming home in a locking notch. Craig C was reffering to this as what gave him ( and me !!) the willies!! Doing this also puts a nasty scratch on the cyl as well ! The diff. in this and fanning is, when fanning the timing is being utilized and when "spinning", the cyl is moving so fast that timing takes a back seat. Fanning is cocking very fast, so all the timing is there. If the cylinder is moving independently of the action, the bolt can drop(or rise, take your pick) anywhere. Thats why a nasty scratch shows up!!

45 Dragoon

 

[rcmodel]

Who the heck is Phil?

And don't learn your gun handling skills, or raise your expectations, from really really bad movies like The Quick & The Dead.

That has to be the most bogus gun movie ever made!


rc

 

[4v50 Gary]

Movies are fun to watch, but not a source for training. Often times they get lighter, fake guns for the stunts. They may use professional handlers to do those stunts too.

 

[CraigC]

That has to be the most bogus gun movie ever made!

I disagree. There was some poor handling but they did a lot of things right. The costumes were excellent, and the gunleather was fantastic. Not a Buscadero rig in sight. Check out the Swede's rig and The Kid's. Herrod's black double Mexican loop with blued Colt's was understated elegance. Let us not forget the Bridgeport rig or Ace Hanlin's fancy Colt double rig. There were S&W's, Remingtons, a LeMat, 1851 Richards-Mason cartridge conversions and I fell out of my seat when he asked for a .38Long Colt for that. In addition to Sharon Stone's fantastic nickeled Model P with one piece ivories. There were some weird things about it and it was obviously directed by the same guy that directed the Evil Dead movies but it wasn't all bad. It wasn't The Searchers or The Outlaw Josey Wales but there's some real gems in there.

 

[TheRodDoc]

The hand spring has nothing to do with the cylinder over rotating. It can be as light as you want it to be. I use springs in all my colts that are so light that they just barley hold the hand to the ratchet teeth. Very slightly. You can hardly hear clicking when spinning the cylinder and it spins very easily. You would be surprised at how much the light spring will smooth the gun when cocking and how much it lightens cocking.
It also stops the fouling drag at the face of the cylinder for it's not pushing the cylinder hard forward against it at all anymore.

The only way you will get what you call throw by is to have a weak bolt spring or the bolt not dropping into the center of the cyl. slot because the cyl. is to far forward or back when it drops. (or something wrong with the bolt or notches themselves)

 

[BowerR64]

Who the heck is Phil?

And don't learn your gun handling skills, or raise your expectations, from really really bad movies like The Quick & The Dead.

That has to be the most bogus gun movie ever made!


rc

His user name is [email protected], he got kicked off the forum last month so he cant post on here any more.

Im not learning any handeling skill from movies but i was just curious about the what seem like frictionless spinning of the cylinder.

Like i said i thought it was bs when i first seen it and havnt thought much about it till i checked out Phils gun and i was blown away and how smooth it was.

 

[45 Dragoon]

Sorry doc, this time you are 100% . . . . Wrong!!

The Colt Factory Manual explains "throw by" (Colt terms, not mine)and the cause of it, very well. I use and refer to the assy. manuals when needed.

I can make all the "light" hand spring tuned S.A.s you have exhibit "throw by".( if they are as light as you describe).


45 Dragoon

 

[45 Dragoon]

I even set some guns up for fanning (all mine can be fanned) and there is no way you can have a hand spring as light as you say (since you can make them "as light as you want") and not have throw by with normal use, not to mention - fanning or even fast handling.

 

[TheRodDoc]

As I said, If the bolt is functioning correctly With the proper strength spring, the cylinder can't over rotate. Mine never do and the hand springs are as light as I said.

 

[45 Dragoon]

Ok, and the moon is made of cheese.
Of course you can say and claim anything here. To tell folks in a forum that what I said is a straight out lie shows your ignorance. I have Colt to back me up on this one. Perhaps you should let them know that they've been wrong since the begining!! You would help the gun industry so much !!!

By the way, a good bolt spring should have 1-3 lbs of pressure ( not a lot) but you can tell them they're wrong there too.

You should write a book at the very least !!!!

45 Dragoon

 

[Crawdad1]

I don't know about the spinning, but if you're going to go through all of the trouble of getting everyone together and all their horses and the get-up to make a Western, make one that at least has real life gun fights in it. Enough with the quick draw, try something else.

That re-make of True Grit was good I thought, I liked it better than the original.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy Again

This is what Jerry Kuhnhausen says in his Colt Single Action Revolvers Shop Manual. In his Parts Inspection and Reassembly section, after about ten pages of instructions and illustrations on how to shape and fit new hands to the SAA and replicas, there is a caution at the bottom of page 214 that states:

"Caution: Hand springs vary in strength and should be tuned on an individual basis. Spring tension must not be reduced to the point the cylinder throws-by or skips."

Then on page 226 of the After Assembly Function Checks section Kuhnhausen describes the Cylinder Free Spin Check. He states "The following check is a variation on the method used by pre and post WWII gunsmiths to check S.A.A. and Colt pattern replica S.A.A. Revolvers for excessive cylinder free spin:

1. Load two dummy cartridges with standard weight bullets side by side in the cylinder of the S.A.A. Revolver to be cylinder free spin checked (two cartridges optimize eccentric weight distribution).

2. Hand position the cylinder so that the chamber with the topmost dummy cartridge is: (a) up next, (b) in top position, and then (c) one chamber past top position.

3. Then, fast cycle the hammer to half cock position with the chambered rounds in all 3 above locations to determine whether the eccentrically weighted cylinder throws-by (skips) - if it does hand spring tension is not sufficient."

End of quotation. The above test, fast cocking to the half cock position is basically exactly what was happening with my 2nd Gen SAA. The bolt and bolt spring strength does not enter into the equation at all because the bolt remains down at half cock position and does not pop up at all. In this instance, the hand spring must have enough tension to apply enough 'braking force' so that the eccentrically weighted cylinder does not throw by. And yes, my SAA was correctly timed, the bolt popped up smartly (still does) in the center of the lead to the bolt stop slots on the cylinder.

As I stated earlier, replacing the overly light weight hand spring in this revolver with a new, properly shaped one, cured the problem and the gun passes the free spin check every time with flying colors. Why is this important? Because if the shooter happens to short stroke the hammer slightly after firing a few rounds, the cylinder can throw by before the bolt has been freed to pop up. Then when the hammer stroke is completed, the bolt pops up after its locking slot on the cylinder has passed by. In this instance, the cylinder can come to a stop not lined up with the bore and the bolt not in the locking slot. If the chamber is slightly out of line, without the cylinder properly in battery, and the trigger is pulled, there is a good chance the primer will fire. With the cylinder unlocked and out of alignment, disaster could follow.

Free spin and light cocking effort has its place, but there is a point where it can be overdone.

 

[45 Dragoon]

I Do know about spinning and I'll go along with ya and say Tombstone is a good one !! Course, there is some "gun play" as well and Doc was supposed to be very good with the six gun. Other than that, it's very believable.

45 Dragoon

 

[Crawdad1]

I agree, Tombstone is pretty good. It at least accurately reflects the real brother to brother relationsip between Virgil, the real leader of that family, and Wyatt.

 

[45 Dragoon]

Thank you Driftwood !!! My point exactly !!!!!
I' ve done to many "fast actions" and "fanable" actions to lead folks down the road of " tuning" only to end up with a beat up and battered hunk of junk ! I'm trying to keep folks from using bad info that will lead to said "hunk of junk".

45 Dragoon