1858 Timming setup?

[BowerR64]

Ive never had to adjust the action on an 1858 yet and im still trying to figure out how they work exactly.

If the bolt comes up at half cock the bolt arms are to short?

Im messing with this lyman 1858, the hand and spring broke in the shooter model and my dad robbed the hand and spring from this one to fix that one. He tack welded a spring to the broken hand or something to get it working.

When i put it back together it wouldnt fully cock. Half cock it would drop the bolt and spin free. It was as if the hammer wasnt moving back far enough to fully cock.

I shortened the point on the hand a little and now it will fully cock but now half cock the bolt drops and lock the cylinder. I swear i never touched the bolt hand.

Does it need a new bolt?

 

[Palehorseman]

I recently bought a 5.5" barreled 1858 Pietta from Cabela's.

With the cylinder that came with the gun, it worked sweet as sugar. Then I tried the Kirst .45 Colt conversion cylinder. When the hammer was let down from full cock, the bolt would come unlocked and the cylinder would rotate in reverse. This created a potentially dangerous situation.

I then tried three spare C&B cylinders I have and the same thing would occur. On advice from over on the 1858 Remington forum. I gently honed & rounded off/sloped the outer edges of the bolt extension (or leg), a little at a time without changing the length or width of the extension.

This proved to work for the spare C&B cylinders and they are now all working fine, but not so for the conversion cylinder and I quit honing at that point.

I have a Pietta 1858 target model. and the Kirst Cylinder has always worked great in it.

 

[BowerR64]

I think ill take one of my others apart and compare the parts.

I bought a new hand a spring because i figured that was the problem with not being able to cock it. The new hand and spring did the same thing.

I put the old one back in and started to grind on it since its sort of patched together any way.

The hand was so long before i had problems just getting the cylinder in because to much of the point stuck out of the frame.

I think this is all part of the little things my dad had issues with because it was a kit gun. All the fine tunning you have to do and if you dont know how your screwed.

 

[Palehorseman]

One can rebend the spring to where it is not too strong, making the hand stick too much past the frame entry slot.

 

[BowerR64]

Yeah i did that first but once i figured it was to tall or long to allow the hammer to come back fully i took a little off.

Now i think the little fingers on the bolt are not wide enough or the little cam on the hammer isnt tall enough to move the bolt properly.

 

[Palehorseman]

If you are going to work on the bolt leg/extension, be very careful and in no way shorten it, and don't mess with the cam on hammer.

 

[BowerR64]

Yeah i think the cam is the problem.

At first i didnt think my dad shot this one very much but i noticed a HUGE cut in the cylinder pin right infront of the cylinder.

The little blast cut that happens from the firing it. It has the deepest cut of any of the other guns in his collection so i know he shot it ALOT!.

He also used a larger load then i have ever used so that could add to it.

 

[45 Dragoon]

Best not to fool with the cam. Remove the bolt and combo spring. First, a chamber should be in battery when the trigger engages the full cock notch. If it is not there yet, the hand is too short. Likewise, if the chamber goes past battery, it's too long. When this is established, install the bolt. The bolt should start to retract from the locking notch almost immediately when you thumb back the hammer, and should be all the way out the instant the cyl. starts to rotate. At half cock, the cyl. should spin freely to allow loading. Continuing to thumb the hammer back from half cock, the bolt should drop (rise to meet the cyl.) about a bolt heads width from the locking slot. The bolt dropping is controlled by the length of the left arm of the bolt which rides the hammer cam, NOT by screwing with the cam! That equals 3 clicks. 1st is half cock notch. 2nd is the bolt drop against the cyl. 3rd is the simultaneous bolt entering the locking notch and trigger sear engaging the full cock notch.
There's your map.

45 Dragoon

 

[tpelle]

I noticed that you said "grind" in connection with working on the hand. I NEVER use a power tool of any sort when fitting action parts. All work is done with a set of Nicholson precision files.

A grinder will heat the part, and may ruin the hardness. You may need to re-harden any part that you ground on.

 

[tpelle]

Best not to fool with the cam. Remove the bolt and combo spring. First, a chamber should be in battery when the trigger engages the full cock notch. If it is not there yet, the hand is too short. Likewise, if the chamber goes past battery, it's too long. When this is established, install the bolt. The bolt should start to retract from the locking notch almost immediately when you thumb back the hammer, and should be all the way out the instant the cyl. starts to rotate. At half cock, the cyl. should spin freely to allow loading. Continuing to thumb the hammer back from half cock, the bolt should drop (rise to meet the cyl.) about a bolt heads width from the locking slot. The bolt dropping is controlled by the length of the left arm of the bolt which rides the hammer cam, NOT by screwing with the cam! That equals 3 clicks. 1st is half cock notch. 2nd is the bolt drop against the cyl. 3rd is the simultaneous bolt entering the locking notch and trigger sear engaging the full cock notch.
There's your map.

45 Dragoon

What Dragoon said - especially about timing the bolt. EVERY factory-made Italian replica that I've seen has needed to have the bolt leg that rides the cam shortened significantly. Also you need to make sure that the bolt fits inside all six locking notches. If you have to narrow the bolt down, you take metal off of the left side of the bolt (as it sits in the gun and from looking at it as if you are holding it to shoot it).

Only narrow the part of the bolt that extends out of the frame to engage the cylinder locking notch. I use a "drill press vise" or "machinist vise", which can be picked up at Home Depot. I mark the bolt with a Sharpie where it extends out of the frame, then clamp it down to that level in the vise. I then use a file with a "safe" edge - that is, the edges of the file are smooth - to do the work, with frequent stops to test the fit in the cylinder notches.

 

[BowerR64]

Yeah i did that also, the bolt was way to tall before and sort of pointed.

I took it out and put the nub of the bolt into all the slots and it fit very tight i took the edge off the left side.

I figured out the issue with the cam. At first i thought the cam maybe had rotated since its pressed in i thought maybe it came loose and move the part of the cam out of time.

Looking at it with a magnify glass and i could see that its just badly warn out.

Using a file i took the edge off so that it has a more square edge where the bolt leg rides so that it holds the bolt down till it reaches the end of the leg to drop it.

The top 3 are how it was before i filed it.

 

[45 Dragoon]

Keep the cam surface 90 degs. from the hammer and the material on the arm of the bolt flush with the cam surface (that it rides) and you should be fine. Worst case, and more likely, you'll need a new bolt. That's ok. Yer learnin !!!

Thanks tepelle!! I like those files myself !!

45 Dragoon

 

[BowerR64]

Keep the cam surface 90 degs. from the hammer and the material on the arm of the bolt flush with the cam surface (that it rides) and you should be fine. Worst case, and more likely, you'll need a new bolt. That's ok. Yer learnin !!!

Thanks tepelle!! I like those files myself !!

45 Dragoon

Thats the weird thing, the bolt arm doesnt have any wear on it at all. I think this little cam is maybe softer then the bolt.

The worst is ill need a new bolt AND hammer with the new cam.

It works now so i can load it and shoot it atleast.

 

[Old Fuff]

Yup, you're right. These days they make hammers out of relatively soft investment casting, and that includes the cam. The tail on the bolt is much harder, and over time can chew up the cam. The only cure when a hammer goes bad is to get a new hammer, and case harden the lower part that includes the cam before you install it.

 

[BowerR64]

Yup, you're right. These days they make hammers out of relatively soft investment casting, and that includes the cam. The tail on the bolt is much harder, and over time can chew up the cam. The only cure when a hammer goes bad is to get a new hammer, and case harden the lower part that includes the cam before you install it.

Have you done that? is it fairly easy?

Once its case hardened how much longer does it last?

 

[45 Dragoon]

Old Fuff is right and I think the biggest accelerator for the arm eating away at the cam is a too highly tensioned bolt spring. Keeping the surfaces Flat and 90 degs. will keep things in check. If the arm pulls away from the hammer, it will fall off earlier and earlier as it eats away the cam. If it pulls toward the hammer but isn't flat, it will eat away the inside surface of the cam, promoting earlier and earlier fall off. Of course, properly heat treated and fitted parts can last a lifetime.
I have mentioned many times in this forum about tuning springs and this is a perf.example of why. The bolt tension is best set at between 1 and 3 lbs. I've measured as much as 7! No wonder cylinders get gouged and peened right out of the box !!!! I set all mine between 1 and 2 pounds.


45 Dragoon

 

[BowerR64]

Old Fuff is right and I think the biggest accelerator for the arm eating away at the cam is a too highly tensioned bolt spring. Keeping the surfaces Flat and 90 degs. will keep things in check. If the arm pulls away from the hammer, it will fall off earlier and earlier as it eats away the cam. If it pulls toward the hammer but isn't flat, it will eat away the inside surface of the cam, promoting earlier and earlier fall off. Of course, properly heat treated and fitted parts can last a lifetime.
I have mentioned many times in this forum about tuning springs and this is a perf.example of why. The bolt tension is best set at between 1 and 3 lbs. I've measured as much as 7! No wonder cylinders get gouged and peened right out of the box !!!! I set all mine between 1 and 2 pounds.


45 Dragoon

What i think started the wear is the tension or lack of tension on the bolt hand spring.

The 2 arms on the bolt are a kind of a spring themself. When i first put it back together those 2 arms were paralell with each other. This can make the action smooth because there is less friction on the trigger and the hammer BUT if there isnt enough tension on the arm that rides on the cam it will slip off early.


That was what i tried first was to spread it out a little but ive seen them break so i didnt do it to much.

I then used a bore light and looked down into the hammer gap as i cycled the action and i could see how the leg rode on the cam. It actually rides on the side when cocking it and then over the top when it drops.

Now i want a lighter hammer spring. Its way to heavy with the little screw all the way out. How do you take some tension off the hammer spring?

 

[tpelle]

I had a Uberti Cattleman 1873 Colt clone, one of the models that had a goofy passive hammer block safety. The cam was not pressed in, as far as I could tell, but was made as part of the hammer. The hammer was never hardened, because it had to be drilled down the center for the little hammer block gizmo that pivoted up and down. The hammer was softer than the bolt leg, and it basically just wore the hammer out in a similar manner to what you have depicted.

If you get this thing timed and working, I believe I'd buy some "Casenit" from TGW and use it to properly harden the hammer. Otherwise you'll be right back in the same boat.

 

[45 Dragoon]

The bolt arms are springs as well but, only for allowing the cam to pass by. The more tension you apply (by bending them apart), the more stress you introduce to the part. I always keep mine as drop in with no spreading. ( this is where the 90 degs. thing and flat surface/ alignment thing comes into play ). The wear comes from the combination trig./bolt spring. You can tune them independent from each other. Where the arms meet the bolt should also be round and not square either (use a round file here).

The main spring can be narrowed quite a bit. If you use a disc, hold it in your bare hands and quinch often. If you are shooting it cap and ball, you need some tension to keep blowback from being an issue. Keep a washer between the spring and trig,guard and if you make it too light, remove the washer and you should be good to go.

 

[BowerR64]

I spread the arms on the bolt before i knew what the problem was.

I spread them apart a little and put it together and it worked but only for a few cycles of the action then it started acting up again.


I took it back apart and then tried to figure out what the parts were doing and then i noticed the little warn spot on the cam.

I shot it today and it worked great, not a single hickup.