Spoke w/ ATF re: antique receivers...

[cpileri]

OK, I got a verbal answer from the ATF asking if a bare pre-1898 bolt action receiver (an 1893 Argy mauser, to be exact) can have a barrel less than 16" put on it without violating NFA.

The answer is "no".

The claim is that since "I'm sure it left the factory as a rifle" (says the guy) in its original condition, thus it is always a rifle and must go thru the legal process to make a legal SBR out of it. Somehow the barrel was removed between then and now, but it must've been attached back then.

OK, I'll admit it probably did leave as a rifle. But there is no way short of asking the manufacturer to be 'sure'. Think that record exists?

So for what is not legally a firearm according to GCA68 (is it a firearm acc to NFA? I dont know but that does seem important to the issue), the ATF claims jurisdiction over it.

I was thinking it would make a great 'savage stryker' type bolt action in 7.65 Argentine or 6.5 Swede. But not now, looks like..

C-

 

[Tamara]

Even <16" 18th Century Winchesters are NFA items...

 

[DMF]

IMHO, I recommend submitting a detailed written inquiry. The folks at ATF should send a detailed written response. That will not only get you better info than a verbal response, but you will have documentation about their answer if there are any questions about it later on.

Just my 2 cents. YMMV.

 

[cpileri]

18th cy winchesters

Yeah, but the point was that this has no barrel. I was wondering about building up a hunting pistol.

I was denied.

C-

 

[Aguila Blanca]

No, you were not denied. You were given one guy's verbal opinion.

I deal with codes and regs a lot in my work. There have been numerous times when a preliminary verbal opinion has been reversed when a written, formal interpretation was requested (this isn't limited to the BATFE, this applies to government agencies in general).

As already suggested, submit a detailed, written request for interpretation. Be sure to point out that there is no way to determine if it left the factory as a completed rifle or if it might have been a replacement bare action. Assuming it "must have been a rifle when it left the factory" is probably invalid -- that's akin to presuming a suspect is guilty unless he can prove his innocence. That's the Napoleonic legal system, not ours.

 

[cpileri]

OK, OK, y'all are right.

Is there an online form or format I need to use to submit the info?
I've never tried it before.
C-

 

[jefnvk]

ATF only takes written, mailed requests (at least thats what they told me).

And what manufacture is the reciever made by? If its a big one, it is entirely possible that they have records. I talked to a guy who works in a big, reputable gun shop telling me that he once had a guy come in with a Peacemaker that he had found while cleaning out his grandpa's closet, after he died. They advised him, after telling him to stick it in a very good safe and telling not too many people what he had, to call Colt and they would be able to trace the gun to who originally owned it.

 

[Tamara]

If its a big one, it is entirely possible that they have records.

Either DWM or Ludwig Loewe. Their records were probably carbonized in the little unpleasantness of '39-'45. Colt & Smith have such good historical departments because their factories were never bombed flat.

 

[Harry Tuttle]

could you buy a stripped rifle reciever and paper it as a pistol during the transfer?

http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/Store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=19564

or does the manufacturer declare the "rifle" status of the part?

 

[jsalcedo]

Even <16" 18th Century Winchesters are NFA items

I thought 16'' was ok on rifle barrels as long as the overall length of the rifle was 26''

I didn't know they had Winchesters in the 1700's

 

[EOD Guy]

OK, OK, y'all are right.

Is there an online form or format I need to use to submit the info?
I've never tried it before.
C-

There is no particular format. Just send a letter requesting clarification on the regulation. If you can reference a particular section of the regulation, it will be a lot easier for them to answer you.

Send the letter to the Chief, Firearms Programs Division, BATF, Washington, DC. I don't remember the Zip code but you should be able to find it on the BATF web site.

I received replies to my last two letters in a little over a month. They are actually very responsive and seem eager to help.

 

[Tamara]

jsalcedo,

I didn't know they had Winchesters in the 1700's

Sorry, 1800's=Nineteenth Century. Listen to what I think, not what I say.

(But < is still a less than sign. )

 

[jefnvk]

here is the address:

The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives cannot respond to e-mail inquiries relating to technical, policy and/or legal questions. Inquiries of this nature can only be addressed through a letter outlining your questions to the following address:

Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives
Office of Public and Governmental Affairs
650 Massachusetts Avenue, NW.
Room 8290
Washington, DC 20226

You will receive a written response to your inquiry. Specific and general questions can be directed to the following e-mail addresses:

http://www.atf.gov/contact/index.htm

 

[Double Maduro]

once a rifle always a rifle.

Otherwise you could simply remove the barrel from any rifle and put on a short one.

Now if you could prove that this receiver never had a rifle barrel then you would get approval.

That's just my opinion and what do I know?

DM

 

[cpileri]

welll sure

Double maduro- yeah, if I can do that its no problem. what I am getting at is if there is no way to prove one way or another, which way will the atf go with this very old barrelless action?

jefnvk- thanks for the address!

C-

 

[Tamara]

cpileri,

Double maduro- yeah, if I can do that its no problem. what I am getting at is if there is no way to prove one way or another, which way will the atf go with this very old barrelless action?

They will say it left the factory as a rifle, since all the evidence points that way. (Even the engineer's carbines had 17.6" barrels...) Since the manufacture was all done by outside contract, it's unlikely that bare recievers were shipped to Argentina.

Agent Schmuckatelli is almost as big on "once a rifle, always a rifle" as he is on "once a machinegun, always a machinegun."

Don't ask me what loophole T/C squeezes through...

 

[cpileri]

I've been missing that guy

Y'know, Agent Schmuckatelli has been on a sabbatical but i think its time to call him back. With 14 September approaching, his insight may be very stimulating.
I'll get in touch with him for y'all.
C-

 

[cpileri]

Awww shucks, you missed little ol' me?

From the Desk of Agent Schmuckatelli...

Dear THRers,
I will soon be posting or at least hosting a scan of an official letter detailing the 'once a rifle, always a rifle even with pre-1899 items that are not legally firearms' so you can see for yourselves.
Basically, unless a rifle has a primitive ignition system it has to have a 16-inch barrel and 26-inch OAL, minimum.
Regards,
S-