ATF: AirSoft M16 Is a Firearm

[RONSERESURPLUS]

This sort of thing, weather they resended it or Not, Proves just what so many of us are saying! That the BATFE/BATF or what ever they call themselves this week due to law suits needs to be disbanded and removed! They have a Lonbg History of Bad actions, Bad Judgement and Wrongfull proceedures so that they have had to change names! Like the NIS (NAVAL INVISTEGTIVE SERVIVE Now Called NCIS, after the lies and lawsuits of the Ioea battle ship disaster) the BATFE is to big for it's own Britches, doesn't act within the law, yet, expects all the rest of us to do so, to what ever arbtrary decision that they make? madness, those folks as well as the IRS need to be recalled and removed! Never hapopen, but a great part of why we have less freedoms and our Libery is in jepordy!

 

[hso]

So they have nothing better to do with my tax dollars than to pay people to sit around and make somewhat arbitrary decisions about which part of the firearm is the receiver and which parts aren't? People wonder why things are such a mess?

No, the company submits what they want treated as the receiver and the ATF then rules.

 

[ants]

On the directly related subject...

FYI:
The Code of Federal Regulations referenced in the ATF letter contains enforceable regulations under authority granted by the United States Congress to the executive branch agencies, so they may interpret the statutes in the United States Code which the agencies are entrusted with enforcing. Typically, Congress believes that it is too busy (Hah! Gridlocked is more like it) to write statutes that cover every possible detail, or that the statutes are so technically difficult that they (Congress) is incapable of writing the details.

I write this so we can recognize that we're not stuck with laws written by executive branch agencies. Our Congress can place more specific language in the United States Code, overruling federal agencies as necessary.

Since we elect Congress, our job is to lobby them for change. No, not the president's version of change, our own version. Calling for the disbanding of the BATFE isn't going to get us anywhere. Calling for more strict Congressional oversight will get us somewhere.

Sure is a lot of hatred for the ATF on this forum. But hatred isn't going to get us anywhere. Maybe we should direct those energies toward Congress instead.

 

[52grain]

No, the company submits what they want treated as the receiver and the ATF then rules.

Semantics...

 

[Wolfsbane]

Here's another way of looking at this.

Depending what it's made of, what's to stop someone from taking the airsoft lower receiver and using the investment casting process to have one cast out of a more durable material that will stand up to more than one round being fired off it?

 

[hso]

what's to stop someone from taking the airsoft lower receiver and using the investment casting process to have one cast out of a more durable material that will stand up to more than one round being fired off it?

That's not going to be the issue. BATFE is only interested in the item in hand constituting a firearm. If you could cast from a mold of the thing and make a firearm directly, then the thing would constitute a firearm in the first place.

 

[Owen]

it's already aluminum, isn't it? why does it need to be a more durable material?

 

[mustang_steve]

At what percantage are real AR lowers considered firearms?

It sounds like BATFE went out of their way to make this one functional, making it sound more like they manufactured an improvised firearm, not finished a partiallly completed firearm.

Improvised arms are hell to regulate....let's regulate steel pipes since we can make zipguns from them...now let's regulate steel reinforced epoxy since it can be used to strengthen the steel pipe barrel and produce a reciever, making it a more complicated firearm...

Slippery slopes abound.

 

[DoubleTapDrew]

At what percantage are real AR lowers considered firearms?

I've seen many 80% AR lowers being sold, which apparently don't need a serial number or FFL since the ATF ruled they need "specialized equipment" to finish them properly and thus, aren't considered a firearm.
Airsoft guys tend to pride themselves on how authentic and close the airsoft gun is to the "real steel" version in weight, function, looks, etc. Maybe they wen't too far this time!

 

[berettaprofessor]

Since I'm one of those with one of them "plastic" PlumCrazy lowers; which works just fine when mated with my dedicated 22 or 5.56 uppers; I'm in the camp that says the ATF may not be so far off the reservation here.

 

[fastpat]

Here's another way of looking at this.

Depending what it's made of, what's to stop someone from taking the airsoft lower receiver and using the investment casting process to have one cast out of a more durable material that will stand up to more than one round being fired off it?

Well, money for one. It would be much cheaper to buy an 80% finished forging than to do what you suggest.

Remember, the upper isn't restricted (yet), only a fully finished lower is controlled. 80% lowers are NOT restricted.

The airsoft debacle was a result of a know-nothing in the field and the BATFAE lawyers going wild.

 

[DMF]

I know of an actual criminal case . . .

Really, how about you give us the name of the federal district and court docket number so that anyone with access to PACER can look it up.

 

[Wolfsbane]

Well, money for one. It would be much cheaper to buy an 80% finished forging than to do what you suggest.

Remember, the upper isn't restricted (yet), only a fully finished lower is controlled. 80% lowers are NOT restricted.

The airsoft debacle was a result of a know-nothing in the field and the BATFAE lawyers going wild.

Well of course THAT. It's like anything else. The more money you're willing to spend the easier that becomes. How fast do you want to go? How much money can you spend?

The operative assumption the BATF was going by was obviously how can or can this toy gun be used to create a machine gun. If you're starting with a cast styrene plastic lower, the investment method would be the route to go to get a functional lower without the vetting process. It's not selling a receiver but probably is selling tooling to make one. Hi Point uses the investment casting method to make pistol slides. So there's a precedent of using that method. This is the 21st century, you're not limited to milled or stamped metal anymore.

I think publicly announcing it was a stupid way to go. What they should have done was quietly gone to the Airsoft manufacturers and make it clear that this could be a problem and they need to change the inner mechanics of their product to they can't be used in this manner.

As Samuel Clemens, it's better to keep your mouth shut and be suspected a fool, then open it and remove all doubt. In this case, keeping your mouth shut about this publicly, is a better policy decision than making an official announcement that causes 5000 guys named Abdul to go our and buy Airsoft M16s, but that's just me.

Personally, I think a responsible adult should be able buy any firearm or silencer they want and should be held responsible for illegal acts they do with it, not just having it. But that not the law currently. We need to work on that.

 

[DutchmanDick]

Helloooo.....

B. = Bureau (for the)
A. = Absolute
T. = Termination (of)
F. = Freedom
E. = Everywhere

 

[Gouranga]

Is not not illegal for someone to do what they are describing in this statement? I mean to take a airsoft rifle (which is as sold, not a firearm), and convert it to a full auto or semi-auto firearm?

You cannot take an off the shelf airsoft as sold, load the magazine with 223 and fire away right?

And since there is a law against it nobody would ever do it right (that was sarcasm)?

There are a lot of things out there I can convert to a firearm. Granted, some easier than others but if the product in its full assembled form cannot be loaded with live rounds and used as a firearm, IMO it is not a firearm.

I mean I can grab any number of household chemicals and make high explosives, so does that mean my wife's fingernail polish should be reclassified as an explosive? Seems to me the ATF should be focused on other areas than this. There is no shortage of real law breaking going on that is not being addressed.

 

[fastpat]

Is not not illegal for someone to do what they are describing in this statement? I mean to take a airsoft rifle (which is as sold, not a firearm), and convert it to a full auto or semi-auto firearm?

You cannot take an off the shelf airsoft as sold, load the magazine with 223 and fire away right?

And since there is a law against it nobody would ever do it right (that was sarcasm)?

There are a lot of things out there I can convert to a firearm. Granted, some easier than others but if the product in its full assembled form cannot be loaded with live rounds and used as a firearm, IMO it is not a firearm.

I mean I can grab any number of household chemicals and make high explosives, so does that mean my wife's fingernail polish should be reclassified as an explosive? Seems to me the ATF should be focused on other areas than this. There is no shortage of real law breaking going on that is not being addressed.

As a nameless, but talented, gunsmith once said, "I can turn a Volvo into a machine gun in less than a weekend".

The airsoft embarrassment, to the BAFTAE and its lawyers, is a whole lot of nothing by a government agency that doesn't even have a Constitutional basis for existing, much less warranting the kind of power it has.

A short digression about investment castings. Bill Ruger was a pioneer in modern investment casting technology, the M77 bolt gun has an investment cast receiver, from the early '70's, the technology isn't a new 21st century "thing". Receivers made with the close tolerance investment casting method are NOT mere duplications of a part made from a forging. In order to have strength in the right places to make it equal to the forging, the investment casting would require substantial dimensional changes from the forging.

Precision investment castings are only cheaper than forgings in certain specific situations, I do not see how one could make a lower cost investment cast AR lower receiver over the forged units which are selling for $80-90 plus transfer fee, and even lower cost 80% finished forgings.

Now, back to our usual legal discussion, the fact that the BATFAE has egg all over its face over this debacle, and I can't think of a pack of US government thugs that deserves it more.

 

[Wolfsbane]

Good to know. Hope it never becomes necessary.

Do you think Home Depot can get the BATF to deputize their plumbing department employees and subsidize half their salaries? I can see it now, lobbyist hitchhiking along the road with signs saying Washington DC or bust!