Standard Pressure .38 Spl Defensive Ammo

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Jim Watson said:
Lucky Gunner shows no expansion of those or any heavy JHP in .38 Special. If you want expansion, lightweight JHP or soft lead like WW HBWC and LSWCHP. The 130 gr Fed Micro looks pretty good in their gel.
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Did you view my two previous photos ?
 
Jim Watson said:
Very strange. The 4" gel picture caption you copy says 15.1" penetration, .58" expansion.
The pictures of recovered bullets show only one somewhat deformed and with no real expansion.
The table shows 21.7" penetration, no expansion.
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The photos Mosin showed were from a 4" barrel and yours are from a 2" barrel. It makes a difference. I like Hornady hollow points but they are about the toughest hollow points around.
 
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Looks like it defaults to the 2". Go to the Show Data For box and select Ruger 4".
The bullet picture and table will be as I said, not in agreement with the caption.
 
Mr. Mosin said:
An *old* M&P ? Like, 1948-1952 production M&P ?
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Don't worry about it. The guns were made to shoot the original 38 special loads that are in the same range as the magical +P loads are now.

For 38 special SD loads I still prefer the old 158gr HP lead semi wadcutter. Shot from a 4" barrel they expand reliably and have enough weight to give decent penetration. And they are still sold at a reasonable price. Here ya go. It cost .80 a round. And no, its not plinking or blasting ammo but should do everything you need from a 38 special.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/2900110161?pid=765718

Here is some cheaper plinking ammo. If you look at the specs you see it is loaded the same as the old 38 Long Colt the 38 Special was designed to replace. Thats why they sell the +P rated stuff so you can get real 38 Special loads.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1021031625?pid=580187
 
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Ratshooter said:
Don't worry about it. The guns were made to shoot the original 38 special loads that are in the same range as the magical +P loads are now.

For 38 special SD loads I still prefer the old 158gr HP lead semi wadcutter. Shot from a 4" barrel they expand reliably and have enough weight to give decent penetration. And they are still sold at a reasonable price. Here ya go. It cost .80 a round. And no, its not plinking or blasting ammo but should do everything you need from a 38 special.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/2900110161?pid=765718

Here is some cheaper plinking ammo. If you look at the specs you see it is loaded the same as the old 38 Long Colt the 38 Special was designed to replace. Thats why they sell the +P rated stuff so you can get real 38 Special loads.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1021031625?pid=580187
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So today's .38 Spl +P is the same as pre 70's (before SAAMI screwed with everything) ammo ?
 
Mr. Mosin said:
So today's .38 Spl +P is the same as pre 70's (before SAAMI screwed with everything) ammo ?
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That would be pretty close. Here is a chart i found showing the bullet velocities from different 38 caliber rounds. If you look at the velocity for the 38 long colt its just about the same as that Remington ammo i posted in the other post as far as speed and power. But the original 38 Special is pretty close or in some cases exceeds 38 +P ammo. But I am sure that the 940fps came from a 6" test barrel and in the real world would be closer to 850-900fps from a 4" barreled revolver. The 38 special was supposed to be somewhere around 100-150fps faster than the 38 long colt and in the original load it did that.

How, when or why the velocity of 38 special was reduced to around 750fps I have no idea. I have read it was to make it easier on J-frame revolvers. But I honestly don't know what brought about the drop in factory loaded ammo.

.38 Comparisons
Cartridge Bullet weight Muzzle velocity Muzzle energy Max pressure
.38 Short Colt 135 gr (8.7 g) 777 ft/s (237 m/s) 181 ft•lbf (245 J) 7,500 CUP
.38 Long Colt 150 gr (9.7 g) 777 ft/s (237 m/s) 201 ft•lbf (273 J) 12,000 CUP
.38 S&W 158 gr (10.2 g) 767 ft/s (234 m/s) 206 ft•lbf (279 J) 14,500 PSI
.38 S&W Special Wadcutter 148 gr (9.6 g) 690 ft/s (210 m/s) 156 ft•lbf (212 J) 17,000 PSI
.38 S&W Special 158 gr (10.2 g) 940 ft/s (290 m/s) 310 ft•lbf (420 J) 17,000 PSI
.38 Special Super Police 200 gr (13 g) 671 ft/s (205 m/s) 200 ft•lbf (271 J) ? PSI
.38 Special +P 158 gr (10.2 g) 1,000 ft/s (300 m/s) 351 ft•lbf (476 J) 20,000 PSI
.38 Special +P+ 110 gr (7.1 g) 1,100 ft/s (340 m/s) 295 ft•lbf (400 J) 22,000 PSI[26]
 
Mr. Mosin said:
These are about as good as it gets, in regards to defensive .38 Spl, isn't it ?
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I selected the two rounds that I did because of accuracy. There are better choices if you are looking for expansion from a 2” gun. There are a couple of rounds that have good expansion on the chart in this link below that I haven’t tested, like the Winchester Train and Defend ammo.

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/revolver-ballistics-test/
 
shoebox1.1 said:
Griz what do you think about the hard cast buffalo solid wadcutters? Both ends are flat..
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A solid wadcutter can work. The problem is it is more likely to tumble while the bullet is penetrating. A HBWC with most of its weight concentrated forward is less likely to tumble. This is the reason it gives adequate penetration in gel with a low (725-750 fps) velocity.

Now the tumbling flat base wadcutter can work if it's already reached vitals. IF it's reached vitals.

I'll stick with the HBWC.
 
Kleanbore said:
Why would anyone look for inexpensive defensive ammo?
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To buy more rounds for the same price as more expensive ammo.

For 9mm and .40, I buy strictly Winchester white box stuff as it's under 50 cents a round and works.
 
Well, WWB in auto pistol calibers is just hardball, as effective - or ineffective - as it ever was. Seem to be a lot of folks getting in so many shootouts that the price of hollow points matters to them. Once a gun is checked out with the high priced spread, I practice with ball or most times my own reloads.
 
Kleanbore said:
Is it really considered a good defensive round?
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It's better than a lot of others, performs near as well as more expensive options. Many gel tests have been done with it and it's proven to expand and penetrate sufficiently well.

The Winchester Bonded .40 is Federal LE stuff that's been proven for 30 years. Basically PDX1 performance for 45 cents/round.
 
Jim Watson said:
Well, WWB in auto pistol calibers is just hardball, as effective - or ineffective - as it ever was. Seem to be a lot of folks getting in so many shootouts that the price of hollow points matters to them. Once a gun is checked out with the high priced spread, I practice with ball or most times my own reloads.
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WWB JHP in 9mm and .40 is not "just hardball" as you say, it's good defensive ammo for the money. IDK about you, but I like to fill up more than one magazine with defensive ammo and it's a lot cheaper to fill a few 17 rd mags with WWB than it is a premium ammo.

If the bullets work this well, why bother paying more for the same result?





 
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