Standards for rating used guns

[Cump]

For almost a decade, i have frequented online gun classifieds to find trades, sell and buy.

Over time, I have seen a noticeable change in how people rate their guns. Five years ago, usage of "new" and "like new" was relatively consistent. One could expect a like new gun to have less than 200 rounds fired and no holster wear. There might be handling mark, and the seller might fudge round count minimally, but the finish and rails and hood wear could be mistaken for firing at the factory and handling at the gun counter.

"New" of course meant unfired, not apparently carried, and with the factory goodies (unless advertised).

IME these definitions are no longer operable.

Some sale items for example: a "like new" Sig 365 with 1250 rounds fired for $500. A "like new" Colt Combat Commander with holster wear and 2000 rounds fired for $800. A like new Gen 4 G26 with 1000 rounds fired and minimal holster wear for $500. A "new" Gen 4 G27 with 500 rounds fired. Numerous examples of "new" guns with a box or two fired: Berettas, 1911s, CZs, Glocks, Kahrs. All mass produced guns, all advertised at higher than you can find online.

At least some of these include round counts. I have pursued several "like new" trades in the last year that were not as advertised or pictured. Guns apparently dropped. Frame rails indicating many, many rounds or uneven wear. Touch up paint.

Of course, most of this is buyer beware and stuff we have all seen before. But it has seemed to increase in frequency, and I don't know if is because the hobby has become influenced by the panic and scalping trends, or that more new gun owners are buying and selling in free states. Or maybe I've just finally become disillusioned.

Long post. Multiple points of discussion.

Have you noticed a difference? How do you explain it? Or what standards do you follow in rating your guns?

 

[NIGHTLORD40K]

Ehh, I rarely use the terms "like new" or "as new" at all when selling a used gun, but if I did it would be because the weapon is in such excellelent cosmetic condition as to be indistinguishable from a similiar model straight from the factory.

In the case of, say, old phosphate-finished SIGs, the sharp edges of a brand new pistol would often already be worn bright new in the box. I have several which are still in this condition which I could describe as "like new" and yet they are not flawless.

Similiarly, brand new stainless Rugers will often have machining marks or scratches present from the factory. A gently used example with no additional wear or scratches would still be "as new" in my book because even new it wasnt perfect.

A much higher bar would be set for a vintage blued Colt or S&W revolver which were finished to a high degree of perfection before leaving the factory. Once you open the cylinder, you've pretty much tossed "like new" out the window.

 

[earlthegoat2]

If there is a round count given then that tells me much of what I initially need to know. After that, detailed inspection is in order.

Many folks will call something “as new” if it is externally impeccable. Maybe 95% or better. If something looks great externally and has 2000 rds through it then some touch up has been done or the owner is very meticulous about care of the firearm.

As I have posted on before, I generally only buy firearms that have long histories of performance and reliability. I only ever buy pre owned and the truth is that I don’t inspect them too thoroughly. I make sure it is a model that has good factory support still like S&W, Ruger and Glock. I check revolvers for timing on all cylinders.

Cosmetic condition does not bother me much as long as I get what I’m paying for.

 

[reddog81]

I haven’t noticed that much of a difference over the last 5 years. All the stuff you mention was happening 5 years ago and at the same frequency as today.

I generally don’t sell my guns so I don’t worry about rating my guns. When buying a description is a useful starting point but I always inspect the general condition and functionality as much as possible. When buying at a gun store or gun show you don’t get a description and need to be adept at identifying wear, replaced parts, defects in the finish, approximate use, etc.

In your post you mention that maybe you’ve became disillusioned... I’d guess that you’ve just become more knowledgeable and can spot the BS easier....

 

[FROGO207]

The words "as new" or "minty" are always red flags from for sale adds specially when the price listed is more than current retail IMO. I like it when the pictures are of a clean 90% example and when you go look at it in person there is a 50-60% firearm presented. That is a deal breaker as there could be other issues that the seller is not divulging.

 

[MedWheeler]

I never agreed with the idea of calling something "new" just because no owner has fired it. I have guns purchased new that are several years old that I have not fired. How can something several years old be "new"? A brand-new version might even be different if the model has been updated by the manufacturer.

I'd rather see descriptions such as "unfired and like new" to describe, for example,those guns. The description should include the purchase date along with an accurate physical assessment.

 

[Labguy47]

And that ladies and gentlemen is why I buy used. I’m not sorry that most of my guns where owned by someone else first. I don’t care about finish being pristine or round counts. It’s used! If you want to be upset that someone miss represents the gun that they are trying to upsell to you, go buy a new one. Then whine about the new products in his display case, see how far that gets ya.

 

[AlexanderA]

I have found over 50 years of collecting that nothing beats a personal inspection. This is why I still go to gun shows. I simply don't worry about stated condition standards.

 

[Jim Watson]

The two most common advertising terms for second hand guns are Blue Book percentages and pure BS as above.

The good old NRA terms have fallen out of use.
New meant "Not previously sold at retail."
Once you bought it, it would be Perfect until it showed some slight sign of use, when it would become Excellent.

 

[pert near]

I don't buy a lot of guns not in person. But I'll sell a few parts & related items now & then on forums. I'll use the terminology if it's true: "This item is used but could easily pass for new except for...." Then show plenty of pictures including any flaws if there are some.

 

[gunlaw]

The seller can say whatever they want. It’s the buyers job to inspect and evaluate.

 

[Labguy47]

The seller can say whatever they want. It’s the buyers job to inspect and evaluate.

Now that is sadly the truth. False advertising has become the norm.

 

[RodII]

I have bought 7 handguns off GunBroker and gun forums and all the guns where as described. I only buy when there are a lot of pics, and usually questions between me and the seller. One 3 occasions when a good amount of money was involved I talked to the seller on the phone.
I avoid any GunBroker auction that does not seem right. I have seen a lot of auctions with "LNIB" and "not shot outside the factory" used in the description. I passed on one auction where the seller had the listing as "new" but in the description said the buyers FFL must accept shipment from a individual. I do not put much trust or a lot of weight in round count numbers, 50, a couple hundred to a thousand is to me no difference. I will put a thousand rounds through a new gun the first 2 or 3 range trips.
There are a lot of honest seller out there but also a few bad apples.

 

[PapaG]

I use several terms for mine. I have a 70s unfired 357/9mm convertible Blackhawk, in the original box, in the original sleeve, in the originial plastic, and while for all intents and purposes it is new(!!) it is not new, it is preowned but unfired and 99.9%. I'd price it at Blue Book 98% and it would be a steal if someone prices a "real" new one in the shop.
Basically, I call them in terms of % of original condition and price or offer accordingly. A big factor, not in the book, is the desirability, of any particular gun. If it something I've long sought after, if it is in acceptable condition, and I want it I'll pay a little more than condition warrants.
One problem working in a LGS is that there are way too many times when something comes in that is in great condition, is "useable", and I have a real or perceived need for. AND, I can get it for a good price. Safe is full of those and I'm starting to thin them out.
New, As New, Perfect, 99% for guns someone has bought and handled are just terms and not reality.
I like the old NRA ratings: Excellent, Very Good, Good, Fair, Poor.

 

[Cump]

The seller can say whatever they want. It’s the buyers job to inspect and evaluate.

Agreed, though it is frustrating when you set up a meeting to find the gun is not as advertised or pictured.

I may be recognizing more. But there is a definite difference in the ads on the exchange. 5 years ago I don't remember anyone selling "new" guns with round counts or "like new" with 1000s of rounds. We have a few repeat offenders, and I wonder if they have lowered the standards.

When I meet for a deal, I inspect, and if it doesn't match what I expected, I inform the seller why I'm not buying.

I don't set up meetings with misleading sellers, so I guess its good when its apparent on the ad ...

 

[PapaG]

Back in the eighties I bought a 1917 Brazilian Contract Smith, advertised in "goog to very good" condition. It would be a stretch to make "fair". However, I was sharp enough to realize these are finite in number and the price was so good I kept it. Wish I'd ordered a dozen. Price em today.

 

[mjsdwash]

people are idiots. "like new" really means "in working condition". These are the people that have never seen a product advertised as "used", just "preowned". Conditions are New, like new, worn out. Normal people don't think like this, but the really young, and the people who get in on the panic, and loose interest don't know what they're really looking at.

 

[Speedo66]

People feel safe sitting behind their keyboards. What are the chances someone thousands of miles away is going to come after someone who falsifies the condition in an ad?

People do the same thing with Craigslist auto ads. I looked at an ad for a Porsche 914 for my kid many years ago. I called the guy and specifically asked where the rust was, I was told there wasn't any at all. This was on a car notorious for rust. I asked him several times and each time was told no rust. Drove an hour up and before I even got out of the car I could see the driver's side rocker and rear wheel well were rusted away, I assumed the other side was probably the same.

I told my son I wasn't even going to get out of the car and started to turn around. Guy comes running up to the car and asks why I'm leaving. Trying not to get bent out of shape because my kid was in the car, I said "you told me there was no rust". His answer was "if I told you there was rust you wouldn't have come." To this day I pride myself on my self restraint for not caving his head in.

 

[Sistema1927]

Seller before sale: "I need $xxx because it is almost new."
Buyer before sale: "I will only give you $xxx for that worn out old thing."

Seller after sale: "Sure glad that I unloaded that albatross for $xxx."
Buyer after sale: "I was able to obtain this pristine example for only $xxx."

 

[Cump]

So admittedly my post included a good deal of complaining, but it wasn't that buyer beware, or that both seller and buyer have vested interests.

I wish we now had consistent definitions to refer to, and at least in my locale, definitions seemed to be more consistent (and reasonable to me) as little as five years ago.

This comes from the perspective of someone who has check in to the local online exchange almost daily for the last decade. Maybe the change is chance or my failed perception. But if there is some logic to it, I think it noteworthy.

 

[rule303]

Really, you just don't know. My trap shotgun looks like it just came out of the box, but has 50-60,000 rounds through it. I still have the box, and if I advertised it as "like new" or "minty'' how many people could tell the difference? On the other hand I have an old Winchester 94 that has been carried hunting for years and looks rough, but probably has less than 100 shots fired. Always buy the gun, not the story. If it is anything but unfired in the factory box, only pay what you think is fair assuming you will need to do at the least a minor tune up.

 

[Steve S.]

The most valuable information is what you are not told.