Stang shooting/mad minute method

[Kendal Black]

It is an old trick in Scandinavia and the UK and Commonwealth nations. You rapid-fire a bolt action rifle by gripping the bolt knob in thumb and forefinger, pressing the trigger with your middle finger. If your middle finger will not reach the trigger on the rifle you are using you may try your ring or little finger.

I enjoy knowing this trick because it makes a bolt action rifle about as fast as a lever or pump action rifle. Has anyone here fooled with this method? What are your conclusions? Good to go, or not so hot?

 

[hq]

An old but mostly forgotten trick. A way to lay suppressive fire with a bolt action rifle in combat environment or hunting driven/dangerous game. It's nice to see that there are videos about it out there, the guy with the Lee Enfield is pretty good.

 

[hps1]

Pretty quick, but how accurate?

With a little practice, it is not difficult to get a well aimed shot off with a bolt gun about every 3-4 seconds (using normal hold and trigger finger) IIRC. No trick to start from standing, assume sitting position, fire 5 rounds, reload from stripper clip and get five more rounds off, all within 60 seconds. Been a long time, but I believe the first round is usually fired around 15-18 second mark??

Bolt manipulation is accomplished by raising bolt to eject fired round by coming up under bolt with flat side of hand (thumb up, fingers pointed toward muzzle, palm against side of rifle), rolling hand over bolt handle at rear end of stroke and pushing forward with the palm and heel of hand to reload.

ETA: Should have watched all the videos before posting. Nothing wrong with their accuracy. Just looked a bit awkward to me....different strokes for different folks.

Regards,
hm

 

[Dr T]

There is a bit about accuracy at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mad_minute .

From the article: "The first Mad Minute record was set by Sergeant Major Jesse Wallingford in 1908, scoring 36 hits on a 48 inch target at 300 yards (4.5 mils/ 15.3 moa)." There are more recent world records, of course.

Another item: Using this method, you get a much better appreciation of the design of the Lee Enfield and why it cocks on closing.

 

[hps1]

There is a bit about accuracy at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mad_minute .

From the article: "The first Mad Minute record was set by Sergeant Major Jesse Wallingford in 1908, scoring 36 hits on a 48 inch target at 300 yards (4.5 mils/ 15.3 moa)." There are more recent world records, of course.

Another item: Using this method, you get a much better appreciation of the design of the Lee Enfield and why it cocks on closing.

Great article, thanks for the link. I guess I was comparing apples to oranges (until I watched one of the subsequent videos that showed the target spotting screen along with the shooter in split screen). No warts on his accuracy, for sure.

I was comparing to NRA NM coarse. 200 yd. (sitting) rapid fire allows 60 sec. and 300 yd. (prone) allows 70 seconds. x ring on both targets is 3" & 10 ring 7". I'm sure if I tried that method, I'd be tripping over my fingers trying to figure out what to do with what finger.

Regards,
hm

 

[jaytex1969]

I prefer the Mosin Nagant Mad Minute.

You fire a shot, then get mad when it takes a minute to get the bolt open...

 

[Kendal Black]

Knowing your options is a good thing, and that is all I take this to be: one more thing you can do with a bolt action. You can, at the cost of some awkwardness, gain a considerable increase over the normal rate of fire. It is not the max precision option; that will always be slow fire, and the slower the better.

If you are carrying a bolt action and thinking a little more rate would be a good thing, welcome to the past. Our grandfathers asked that question. Here is their answer, such as it is. Of course, shooting faster means you must reload sooner. Detachable box magazines or stripper clips are useful adjuncts to the method.

I find this little trick of working the bolt and trigger nice to know, both as a matter of historical interest and as something that might even be useful somehow. Not sure how...but it might be!

 

[Merle1]

One thing to remember about the mad minute; it was intended for use against massed troops where pinpoint precision was not an issue.

 

[hps1]

I find this little trick of working the bolt and trigger nice to know, both as a matter of historical interest and as something that might even be useful somehow. Not sure how...but it might be!

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^^^^^^^^^While bolt manipulation accomplished extremely rapid fire, I was a bit dubious as to ability to shoot accurately. This video convinced me I was wrong.

This method may not be for everyone and seems awkward to me, it obviously works extremely well for those who practice it. Sure plan to give it a try next range session; even old dogs can learn new tricks, just at a much slower rate. Thanks for posting!

Regards,
hps

 

[Walkalong]

I thought everyone learned to do that when introduced to bolt guns. By the time the sights are back down on target you can have a round chambered. Assuming some practice of course. Those guys that do it well in competition are very good at it.

 

[boom boom]

At the battle of Mons early in the First World War when British troops encountered Germans for the first time, the Germans mistakenly reported widespread use of British machine guns but the British fire at Mons was chiefly from Lee-Enfields.
http://www.express.co.uk/news/world-war-1/502649/WWI-The-Battle-of-Mons

 

[Kendal Black]

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^^^^^^^^^While bolt manipulation accomplished extremely rapid fire, I was a bit dubious as to ability to shoot accurately. This video convinced me I was wrong.

If I am seeing this aright, the guy shooting the G3 came in third behind two guys with bolt actions.

 

[hps1]

If I am seeing this aright, the guy shooting the G3 came in third behind two guys with bolt actions.

That's the way I see it.

I wonder what the range was. If that is an actual target camera, it has to be very short range as target not bold enough to see very far away with iron sights. Based on size of bullet holes and target image, I'd guess something like our 1000 inch ranges??? Any rate those guys holding tight groups.

Regards,
hps

 

[Kendal Black]

^ I'd guess it is a target sensor setup of some kind, holes not to scale. Note the delay between the bang and the hole appearing.

This indicates the two targets are at 125-175 meters and at 200-250 meters: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stangskyting . The article does not make clear just what size the two targets are, just "small" and "1/4," which might mean anything.

Who can tell us the sizes of the targets?

 

[hps1]

^ I'd guess it is a target sensor setup of some kind, holes not to scale. Note the delay between the bang and the hole appearing.

This indicates the two targets are at 125-175 meters and at 200-250 meters: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stangskyting . The article does not make clear just what size the two targets are, just "small" and "1/4," which might mean anything.

Who can tell us the sizes of the targets?

Thanks to DrT above: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mad_minute

Apparently two sizes used by military. Perhaps the 1/4 indicates 1/4 scale?

Did notice the delay in holes appearing but thought might be digital delay? Lots of unknowns so hard to say what group sizes are, but bolt manipulation is impressive indeed.

Years ago, I was fascinated to watch an "old fellow" (at the time, turns out he wasn't so old after all in retrospect ) that shot a right hand bolt gun left handed in NRA competition. His rapid fire strings were something to observe! (10 rounds in 60 seconds, as described in my earlier post). When you subtract the time used to assume position initially and time lost in reload, you have to get off a round every two....three seconds max. in order to complete the string, and he didn't even break a sweat.

Regards,
hps

 

[GooseGestapo]

It's an electronic target system like that used at CMP Talladega. No need to work target pits, or change target face.

 

[hps1]

It's an electronic target system like that used at CMP Talladega. No need to work target pits, or change target face.

What'll they think of next!? Almost more than this old codger can comprehend.

Brings to mind a situation we encountered in the pits at a state match 35 or so years ago. They had just replaced the "lickem & stickem" pasters with those new fangled self adhesive ones and must have issued a bad batch, as during every rapid fire string, it would "rain" pasters from every target as the bullets impacted target faces. Talk about a nightmare trying to score the targets.....lots of unhappy competitors that day!

Regards,
hm

 

[hq]

What'll they think of next!? Almost more than this old codger can comprehend.

Not really old, I've seen and used very similar targeting systems - maybe even the same - at least 15 years ago. A scandinavian thing, perhaps? The only problem I have with them is that the (piezo-? acusto-?) electronic target membrane is prone to rip when shot with anything other than FMJ ball. Don't ask how I know...

 

[hps1]

The only problem I have with them is that the (piezo-? acusto-?) electronic target membrane is prone to rip when shot with anything other than FMJ ball. Don't ask how I know...

That's just as bad as half the pasters falling off every time a bullet hits the target face!

Regards,
hps

 

[Kendal Black]

I found an interesting use for the method. It is good for saving money. I was in a gun shop the other day and the proprietor placed into my hands a very nice, very smooth-working Savage 99 in .308. Tempting, for it is a great rifle and very quick, but I realized I could shoot my garden variety bolt action .308 about as fast, so I handed his gun back to him with a smile.

 

[M67]

Who can tell us the sizes of the targets?

"Småen", the closer target, is 25cm wide by 30 tall. That's the oval one below.

The larger target is the triangular one below. 49cm wide at the base, 33 tall. "1/4", as far as I know, originally refers to 1/4 the size of a full (man size) silhouette.

Both targets are normally used at longer range but moved in a bit for "Stang". Part of the fun is that you have to estimate the range yourself, knowing the minimum and maximum.

 

[Kendal Black]

"Småen", the closer target, is 25cm wide by 30 tall. That's the oval one below.

The larger target is the triangular one below. 49cm wide at the base, 33 tall. "1/4", as far as I know, originally refers to 1/4 the size of a full (man size) silhouette.

Both targets are normally used at longer range but moved in a bit for "Stang". Part of the fun is that you have to estimate the range yourself, knowing the minimum and maximum.

View attachment 231889 View attachment 231890

Great, thank you very much. That gives us a better sense of what we are looking at in the videos.

 

[22250Rem]

I enjoy knowing this trick because it makes a bolt action rifle about as fast as a lever or pump action rifle. Has anyone here fooled with this method?

I've read about British & Canadian forces doing that with their Lee_Enfields circa WW-1 (my paternal grandfather spent 17 months in France 1917-18 in the Canadian Army) . Back in the early 1990's there was a lot of that old, mil-surp, corrosive, berdan primed, cordite, .303 British ammo around at almost give away prices and I wound up with a couple thousand rounds of it. So naturally I had to give my #1 Mk. III Lee-Enfield a workout with it. Discovered that a Lee-Enfield can be fired a lot faster than I ever dreamed was possible. However; at least in my case, I was shooting so fast that my accuracy became dismal. But apparently that style of shooting was meant to be used against massed troop formations where accuracy wasn't the highest priority. Went through a lot of .303 doing that but never did get very accurate shooting that fast, but it was interesting and fun. Still have hundreds of rounds of that stuff but not too interested in shooting it as it's corrosiveness and dirtiness turned me off but at least the rifle bore still looks mint. It got cleaned thoroughly immediately after every range session when ever that stuff was being used.

 

[Kendal Black]

^ I think the charm of the Scandanavian contests shown above is that the shooters have to balance the tasks of running their rifles quickly and aiming carefully enough to get hits. As I watch, I sense that a good deal of practice goes into gaining the skill to do both at the same time. Minimal disturbance of the rifle's position seems to be a part of it, and so does good recoil control and follow-through.

I think it looks like fun, and possibly a useful skill under some circumstances. I'm adding it to the things I practice, something new for the bag of tricks.