Starbucks should say "Yes" to Brady Campaign

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What makes me nervous is fat cops that get winded by simply getting out of their cars. I see plenty of these gems around. The problem there is that anti-gun people won't see what's wrong with being grossly out of shape while wearing a uniform and a Glock, but absolutely everything is wrong with that.
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Amen.

I couldnt resist posting to the facebook discussion that cops are often less qualified to carry then a trained permit holder.
 
I have a concealed handgun permit and live in Virginia which is an open carry state. I've only seen two people in my lifetime open carry in public and in stores. Both times it made me feel uncomfortable. Why you ask? I'm not sure. I don't know if its wondering what this guy's motive is, what point is he trying to make, is he just trying to be macho or whether he just feels to need to show his gun. The one thing it did make me wonder about, having seen him carrying around his gun, is does he have even the basic training to safely handle it. I know in Virginia to get a concealed permit you have to attend a safety class and show minimum safety and shooting skills, at least in the class I took. I suspect the general public may have the same feeling that I got, "is this guy safe".
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Whose problem is it then?

Not trying to be snide but no one can control how you feel but you.

Living here in TN I have a CC permit, but open carry is legal. I don't normally practice OC but in the early spring and late fall when the temperature varies wildly, I have often started out carrying on my hip with a long shirt, and jacket over it, and as it warms up I have to shed clothes. On more than one occasion I have went into stores OC and have never had a negative comment directed towards me. I have had several people comment and ask what I was carrying, and even a few mention that they need to OC some too. OC is not my preffered method, but I do ascribe to the use it or lose it school of civil rights. For to long we have allowed the antis to frame the discussion and to control things, law abiding OC, especially by solid known members of the community, is just one more way to help show the sheep that it is OK to have guns.

TCB
 
General Geoff said:
Don't believe everything you're told. I wouldn't trust the word of an instructor about a law, until I read the statute (and relevant case law) with my own two eyes.
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Normally I would agree, I didn't think my class was that extensive on law, and I wish they went into more depth rather than spending time showing the difference between a revolver and a pistol. However the instructors were county sheriffs, off duty, and cited Iowa court cases that the issues came up in.

Not to mention, again, I wouldn't like it at all to have to map out the grey areas of Iowa gun laws in a court room. Anyone else have that money, time, and desire come on to Iowa please and go for it, keep me updated.


I am pro gun all the way, I would rather open carry be a common and open practice wherever you go in any state.

But the fact is, it is not, and gun ignorant people would get nervous if they are not used to seeing it, and some would probably think it was illegal.

Even I am more alert and cautious when I know someone else around me has a firearm, and I don't know who they are. There have been plenty of morons out at the range I go to that I have had to be very aware of what they were doing, at times I have just left the range or moved to another section. One girl comes to mind that was on the bench next to me where she had a dangerous habit of waving her barrel all around with her finger on the trigger of the rifle while she was chatting. However if everything seemed ok with someone I wouldn't give it another thought after a few minutes.

So I can just imagine what gun ignorant people would do or say.

I think if I could open carry I still wouldn't, just because it seems like a pain in the ass. I wouldn't want to have to explain to every person that sees my weapon when in my state I can just conceal it in and move on in my day as normal.

If there was a huge movement to open carry, not just pockets in your sate, or at least to educate about peoples rights, I would be all on board. But too many people stay stupid today and live on about 15mins worth of "news" if any at all.
 
happygeek said:
I seem to remember reading somewhere that cops accidentally shoot more people than private citizens with CCPs do.
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A cop can face a life or death situation on any given traffic stop, happygeek.

How many life and death situations have you faced in the same time frame of that statistic you "seem to remember" vs how many cops across America have seen?
 
It's a real statistic. 5.5 times more likely. It's not accidental shootings, it's shooting innocent bystanders.
It was a study by Carol Ruth Silver and Donald B. Kates Jr.
 
A cop can face a life or death situation on any given traffic stop,
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Everday people can face life or death situations daily given the whole LEOs interact with the unknown scenario. How many strangers do you see in a given day?
 
How many people have been shot in starbucks by these open carrier's.......ZERO! That's what I thought. Typical brady tactic, make a big deal out of a non issue. This just show's how desperate they really are, no one is listening to them, all they hear are crickets, I say good!:)
 
It may be astonishing, but I think it's quite true: many people are deathly afraid of guns, people who own guns and people who carry guns -- except for LEOs. Maybe they see LEOs as different because they believe LEOs to be subject to supervision and/or screened and selected for the job and/or well trained.

Maybe we can disagree with that reasoning, but it is still a widespread public perception. And whether or not we agree, it's important to the preservation and furthering of the RKBA that we understand how others view the world.
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I almost want to laugh, because their fear in this manner is based on their incorrect notion that guns often go off by themselves, shooting in random directions and killing everyone in sight.

If that were true, how would I be any safer whether Mr. Cop, Mr. Felon, or Mr. Nice Guy was open carrying next to me? I'd be at equal risk in all three cases.

Fear and irrationality often go together... they are the two biggest characteristics of anti-gunners.
 
The zero shooting history was pointed out by the Starbucks barista, Kayla:

Kayla Lynn Berg...

I'd have to say that as long as Starbucks has no negative incidents with a gun in their stores, they aren't going to change a thing. Ever heard the saying "If its not broke, don't fix it"?

Gun carriers have been going into Starbucks for quite some time I gather, and its never been seriously brought up until now, and you guys are just now taking a stand against Starbucks?

I hate to be the one to burst you guys bubbles but Starbucks isn't going to react to you guys not supporting their business anymore. They get more business from gun carriers than you guys can imagine, they would lose more customers banning guns than they will from people like you who have active imaginations and think that your going to get shot getting your morning coffee.

Be realistic, Starbucks is an international company, with more customers than you could ever count, and the number grows daily. They aren't concerned about you guys who are quitting your morning coffee stop to make a point.

I don't mean to sound harsh or anything, but its the reality of the situation you need to look at. Starbucks is a business, they care about profit, and they are going to do what gets them money unless something happens to push them the other way. So unless one of those gun carriers shoots up a starbucks, they are going to keep their current policy.
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paul34 said:
...I almost want to laugh, because their fear in this manner is based on their incorrect notion...
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Of course it is. But nonetheless, they are still afraid and they act and vote at times on the basis of that fear. And these irrational fears of our neighbors can be, indeed have been, a threat to our exercise of the RKBA. So it becomes a question of what are the effective ways to deal such people.
 
The Real Mags said:
Everday people can face life or death situations daily given the whole LEOs interact with the unknown scenario. How many strangers do you see in a given day?
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Might be true but cops have to go into dicy situations where I can avoid them.

I am one for laying off of the cops. They darn sure receive more firearm training than the average permit holder, its just the nature of their work. Some practice it and I imagine some do not. I practice firearm skills, safety and marksmanship, so I will be better at carrying for my own defense, while out in public.
 
Might be true but cops have to go into dicy situations where I can avoid them.
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Good point their job requires them to run toward danger where I have the option to run away. But I must say alot of LEOs in my area are given the oppurtunity to train but decline. I always see LEOs selling off ammo that was issued for firearms training.
 
I live in Iowa...growing up (around 13) i used to open carry a pistol and revolver (1917 Colt 45ACP)to the Ikes Club on the edge of town. I'd even walk into a gas station and get a soda. However this was in the 1960's. I was stopped once while riding my bicycle by a cop. he said my holster should not cover the Ruger MK1 and should be exposed. i got another holster and nothing ever happened. We learned to shoot in a 22 range in the basement of the court house...try that now days.
I have had a CCW for over 39 years.
 
They darn sure receive more firearm training than the average permit holder, its just the nature of their work.
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Average permit holder, perhaps. Average private citizen who actually carries on a regular basis? Doubt it. Most cops carry a gun because it's part of their job, not out of any actual desire to do so. Most licensed/permitted private citizens carry only because they want to; they are not required to do so. They are thus far more likely to seek out training and maintain proficiency by practicing on their own time, than the average police officer.

It's kinda like comparing a police officer's vehicle handling to that of an amateur race car driver. The cop is required to have minimal vehicle training for pursuit; the amateur race car driver is, however, far more likely to be more skilled behind the wheel because it's what he does on his own time.


It boils down to this: You can't replace passion with mandate.
 
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TCB in TN - you ask "whose problem is it then"...its everyone's problem. You're right, no one can control how you feel but yourself. If someone is uncomfortable being around someone who OC's, then that's just the way it is. Chances are, you're not going to change their mind or feelings. People that OC have a certain amount of responsibility to use common sense when they do it. Like our CC class instructor told us about OC..you don't walk down Granby St. in downtown Norfolk with a gun on your hip because someone will see you and call the police stating "there's a man with a gun walking down Granby St." resulting in not one but every available cop being sent to the sceen. While you may not be doing anything wrong, you're going to attract far more attention than you would ever want. While we have the right to OC we need to keep it in mind that a lot of people in the public are not comfortable with it and never ever will be, whether they're a gun owner or not.
 
Re: "...to OC we need to keep it in mind that a lot of people in the public are not comfortable with it and never ever will be, whether they're a gun owner or not."

Yes. And there are different situations so it really depends on the context. After the bruising hate mongering of the Clinton era I expect that more urban areas in particular will require extensive reeducation. Sort of like the deprogramming of cult members.

Locally it is a political statement more than self defense. OC is almost nonexistent around here even if legal and even though CCW is just about banned.

The first time I really started paying attention to the OC movement was when my wife told by that one of her Peets coffee buddies had mentioned the meeting at a Peets nearby (some patrons left, some supported, San Ramon police noncommittal). This was a rather interesting moment for me.

First, my wife was uncomfortable with the idea which sort of surprised me. We have several firearms, she's had basic firearms training and I've been involved in competition where over one hundred people may be walking around us with holstered firearms. When she wants to do her stuff she sends me to the range.

I--the ardent firearms supporter--was not sure how to react, feeling slightly uncomfortable. I was indignant that people would assume the worst, had to think through whether it is a good idea as a political statement and then sort of cheered that someone had the stones to do an "in your face" protest against the SF Bay PC crowd.

For this area I don't know whether a movement is better than individual self defense in the eyes of the SF Bay Yuppie liberals. They tend to go hysterical in the best of circumstances.

I do not think that OC here will be a good idea for some time for the same reason I took the NRA, S&W and Ruger stickers off my car. Sort of advertising for burglaries. I would really like to see a CCW with OC option.
 
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