Starter Flintlock - Brown Bess kit?

[billnpatti]

Take a look at what Sitting Fox has to offer. You can find them at www.sittingfoxmuzzleloaders.com. I think you will be pleased with their offerings and especially their prices.

 

[engravertom]

If you really want a Bess,nothing else will do!

The Bess kits will require some good rasp work, to smooth out the ridges from the stock duplicating machine. Then, good sanding and finishing of the stock. You may have to re drill some holes for some of the hardware. The brass may need some heavy sanding to get it ready for the final polish.

Post your progress here, so we can watch, and answer any questions.

Welcome to smoothbore firelocks!

Tom

 

[Chuck S]

Hey, guys, what are the issues about shooting black powder substitute in flintlocks? I just got a Long Land reproduction after a 5 month wait and damage by UPS. All my knowledge is "book learning" on these systems. Getting ready to buy some supplies for this beast.

First thing I gotta learn is to stop banging it against the ceiling of the house! Longer than my Krags and M1917!

-- Chuck

 

[fyrfyter43]

Hey, guys, what are the issues about shooting black powder substitute in flintlocks?

Unless you really like being aggravated, I wouldn't bother trying to use a substitute in a flintlock. Ignition would be VERY unreliable at best.

 

[higene]

Substitutes in a Flintlock

I have shot substitutes in a 1/2 to 1/2 ratio with GOEX (real in first then substitute). I have heard that one only needs 10 - 20 grains of real on the bottom. I used 4f in the pan, 2f on the bottom and then the substitute.

 

[Das Jaeger]

That

sounds like a real pain in the butt Higene ? Not to mention the difference in horsepower ( burn rates ) that would cause .
Besides not being able to get REAL black powder , I don't understand why anyone would want to purposely NOT shoot it out of a Rock-Lock anyways ? What am I missin here ?

Jaeger

 

[arcticap]

There's a fellow named Herb that has posted extensive test targets and chronograph data of duplex loads on American Longrifles and the MLF that were fired through his flintlock and chronographed.
777 is a very powerful powder and each powder has it's own performance characteristics.
Using a 5-10 grain starter load of BP along with 777 or other sub powders is a way to obtain the performance of Swiss without the hard fouling which means more shots without swabbing.
Why should flintlock shooters have their choice of powders limited when BP can be used like percussion shooters use percussion caps, simply as a way to help ignite the main powder charge.
Everyone has their preference of gun and ignition type and powders too.
Some burn cleaner than others, some are more powerful and some ignite easier.
So why not be able to enjoy the benefits according to the dictates of one's pocketbook and ease of procurement?
Every product has it's own set of advantages and disadvantages. Once people realize that sub. powders can peform very well in flintlocks in a duplex load, it opens up more possibilities for shooting their gun, whether that's for hunting, target or self-defense.
If every one wanted to exclusively shoot Swiss, there isn't enough of it produced to supply every shooter in the whole world each year. Swiss powder manufacturing is only a relatively small percentage of the entire world BP production.
And sub. powders are made in the U.S.A. while a lot of black powder is imported.

 

[Das Jaeger]

And here I thought

Rock-Locks shot real BP the best ?
Go figure .

Das Jeager

 

[Das Jaeger]

Arcticap

My point was , that having to use three different size powders seams to be a pain in the butt . Also , my post was to Higene anyways , not you , but thanks for schooling me in a point that I wasn't trying to even make . :banghead:
Plus I always thought from being brainwashed by Flinter people that the Holy Black was the best functioning powder for Rock-Locks , I honestly thought it was the best powder for them .

Sincerely , Das Jaeger , you hurt my feelings , booo hoo hooo

 

[arcticap]

Here's a post of a range report by Herb that show
the chronograph readings of some duplex flinter loads
using only a 5 or 10 grain starting booster charge of Goex.
Notice that the velocity of equal volumes of 777 &
Swiss are almost identical, and that 777 is faster than Goex.
It's also interesting that there was no wiping between shots.

Here are some more. For each target, I fired
a fouler on the bottom right target first, because the
first shot with a clean bore or powder change is usually
lower in velocity and out of the group. There was no
wiping between shots or cleaning between groups. All
shots are .490 cast balls with white 7 ounce denim from
Wal Mart patches and lube is Murphy Oil Soap and alcohol.

Top left, 80 grains Goex 3F. Note velocity of first shot
is lower, and the fouler was out of the group (see No. 1
on lower right). Mean velocity for six shots is 1832 fps
with 63 spread, but excluding the first, mean is 1840 fps
with 29 fps spread. Group is 1.1". Target 2, 80 grains
Swiss 3F, mean for six is 1985 fps, 28 fps spread, group
0.95". Note that the first shot on the sighter target (#2)
was out of the group.

Target 3, top right, 70 grains Pyrodex RS with 10 grains
Goex 2F as a booster (I tapped down the powder in the
measure and added the 10 grains black on top, and dumped
it down the bore), mean velocity for six is 1686 fps, 53
spread, group is six in 1.55" but five in 0.9".

I build rifles as heirlooms (this one was for a Weigle relative
of mine) and so I test replica powders in case the owner
can't get black powder some years in the future. Have to
hope he'd have some black powder for boost charges and
pan priming.

Target 4, lower left, is 70 grains of Triple 7 2F with 10 grains
Goex 2F booster on top. First six shots, mean velocity is
1881 fps with 138 fps spread. Then I shot five more but
added an over powder wad to the loads, for a mean velocity
of 1921 fps and 76 fps spread, but better accuracy, four in 1.0"

Target 5, center bottom, is 70 grains of Triple 7 3F with
10 grains Goex 2F booster and an OPW. Eight shots mean
velocity 1962 fps, 80 spread. Seven shots in 3.2" but five
in 1.08". I don't know why shot 2 was out of the group.




Here are velocities from a .54 Henry Albright flintlock I built,
42" Green Mtn barrel. A direct comparison of .530 Hornady
balls, .020 pillow ticking, MOS/alcohol lube and a 3/4" thin
leather OPW for all loads. 80 grains.
Goex 3F, mean velocity (MV) 1652 for six, ES 90 fps.
Goex 2F, MV 1525 fps for five, ES 20 fps
Swiss 3F, MV 1810 fps for five, ES 103 fps (had trouble with
loads here)
Swiss 2F, MV 1724 fps for five, ES 25 fps

Triple 7 3F, 70 grains with 10 gr Goex 2F booster:
Six shots 1799 fps MV, ES 66 fps
Triple 7 2F, 70 grains with 10 gr Goex 2F booster:
Six shots 1703 fps MV, ES 51 fps.
Pyrodex RS (I didn't record it, assume 70 gr w/ 10 gr Goex 2F booster)
eight shots 1504 fps MV, ES 50 fps.

Couple days later,
80 Goex 3F, loaded as above, 5 shots MV 1662 fps, ES 37 fps.
75 Pyrodex RS with 5 gr Goex 2F boost, 5 shots MV 1506 fps, ES 27 fps.
75 Triple 7 2F with 5 gr Goex 2F boost, 8 shots MV 1736 fps, ES 44 fps.

80 Goex 3F, thinner leather OPW, 5 shots MV 1662 fps, ES 37 fps.
75 Pyrodex RS with 5 gr Goex 2F boost, 5 shots MV 1506,
ES 27 fps (same as before!) Also same accuracy, groups were 1.45" at 50 yards.
75 Triple 7 2F with 5 gr Goex 2F boost, 9 shots MV 1724 fps, ES 44 fps.
This group of nine shots was in 2.1", the same as before.
The Goex loads went 2.55" first and then 2.55" the next time!
This was a very good barrel. I did not wipe between
shots nor clean between powders, 37 shots in this test.

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=2333.msg23044#msg23044

 

[fyrfyter43]

And that all leads one right back down the same slippery slope that brought us such abominations in the BP world as inlines, scopes and 209 primers, and even electronic ignition systems.. A flintlock loaded with real BP and a PRB will kill a deer just as dead as all that junk. And it's been doing it for hundreds of years.

Personally I prefer to carry one horn. Filled with 3F GOEX (made in America!...and cheaper and easier to clean than any of the substitutes!)

Why would anybody want to carry 3 horns with 3 different powders that won't work nearly as good as good old black powder???

 

[arcticap]

Why would anybody want to carry 3 horns with 3 different powders that won't work nearly as good as good old black powder???

1. Some substitutes are cleaner.
2. Some substitutes are more potent.
3. Some substitutes are cheaper.
4. Loading flintlocks can be slower anyway so that the extra step to load a duplex charge does not consume very much extra time.
5. It's not about a slippery slope, it's about shooting flintlocks successfully within the constraints of their ignition system which duplex loads accomplish quite well.
6. Using duplex loads conserves black powder by increasing the number of shots that can be primed using only a single pound of black powder when it's not always cheap, available, affordable or desirable for everyone.
7. Substitute powders are less hazardous.

Folks should realize that whenever they only have a small amount of BP left for shooting, then they can always switch to duplex loads to conserve their black powder until they're able to obtain some more.
Just take a look at the Tap-O-Cap percussion cap maker. Folks want alternatives to needing to buy store made percussion caps. The time it takes to make them isn't really an issue.
Other folks make their own black powder. But if it doesn't turn out as good as commercial powder, then they can always use it to prime with or to mix it with sub. powders in duplex loads so that it doesn't go to waste.
The time spent making it is a personal choice.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Re. the Middlesex Village muskets, they have a mixed rep as you can see from searches. The reenactor crowd hate them for being inauthentic and way too shiny, but these complaints are both silly and anachronistic. The lobsters did in fact love to keep their Besses polished to high shine and if you brought one forward in time I'm certain he would grab the shiny one and leave the dull Pedersoli behind.

That said, they're not made to the same standard as the Italian ones, let alone the US custom ones so you may have to do some tweaking.

Wow, I don't know which is more inaccurate, the first paragraph or the second. I AM part of that "reenactor crowd" and we don't "hate" MV 1st Model King's muskets, nor are our well informed opinions "silly" mate. They are actually more authentic than the Italian models, which are pseudo 2nd Models, and few would've been seen here in the states. The MV muskets do arrive too shiny, but some work with a "green scrubby" from the dishwashing aisle of the grocery store will soon put that to right. For the absolute purist on a budget, some sanding of the stock to slim it down is all one needs to do. As for "high shine", Uh no..., when properly polishing a musket with brick dust, sweet oil, and a rag, you get a uniform gray, not a high shine, so it isn't anachronistic by any means.

I prefer the 1st Model King's Musket from Loyalist Arms, Canada.

A bess is not designed from precision shooting, and often is not a great choice for the beginning BP shooter. Heavy trigger pull, heavy gun, large ball so gives a good kick.

AVOID the carbine. They are often very bad examples of what was limited in distribution. Yes some rangers were given permission to shorten their muskets. Other than that, IF you ever want to get rid of it for something else, it's easy to find a person in the reenactment community looking for a Bess, but hard to find somebody who can use the carbine.

Loyalist Dave

 

[fyrfyter43]

1. Some substitutes are cleaner. FALSE. They may be advertised as cleaner, but in actual use are not.
2. Some substitutes are more potent. Maybe so, but BP ignites much easier in a rock lock, and still gets the job done.
3. Some substitutes are cheaper. Really? Show me one. I just checked Cabela's website. The cheapest substitute they have is Pyrodex at $19.16 per lb. shipped (for a 25 lb case, provided Cabelas can ship 25 lbs in a single case) . 3F GOEX is $15.97 per lb shipped from Grafs (also for a 25 lb case). With a little bit of shopping around, it can be found a bit cheaper.
4. Loading flintlocks can be slower anyway so that the extra step to load a duplex charge does not consume very much extra time. How is loading a flintlock any slower than loading a caplock??? In fact, a flinter can be faster to load, since you don't have to fumble around with caps or 209 primers.
5. It's not about a slippery slope, it's about shooting flintlocks successfully within the constraints of their ignition system which duplex loads accomplish quite well. Black powder has also been accomplishing that goal quite well for hundreds of years, without any need to carry multiple horns or expensive substitute powders.
6. Using duplex loads conserves black powder by increasing the number of shots that can be primed using only a single pound of black powder when it's not always cheap, available, affordable or desirable for everyone. But then you burn more of the more expensive substitute powders. Black powder, as I already demonstrated, is cheaper than substitute powders and with a little bit of effort is quite easy to obtain in this country, except possibly in Hawaii and Alaska. The last case of powder I ordered from Grafs was delivered to my place of employment within 5 days. A little bit of advance planning ensures that I always have enough BP on hand.
7. Substitute powders are less hazardous. Maybe in the eyes of the mindless twits at the BATFE, but not in practice. The same added potency you brag about also has a consequence if, say, a half pound were to go up in the horn at your side, or a couple pounds in a fire in your home.

 

[Das Jaeger]

Valid points

for sure about the real Black Powder stuff , but what realy matters today ,

which is going to taste better , to me , Malt-o-Meal or Cream-o-wheat this morning
Farina I say , more than just a cap and ball revolver cylinder space filler
Where's my brown sugar and Real Butter anywayz ! God knows nobody should be allowed to use margerine and white processed sugar in there guns , I mean cereal

Jaeger

 

[DrLaw]

So solving an ignition problem involves prodding that hole and putting some fresh 4F in the pan. I've never had a flinter ignition failure I couldn't fix in under a minute.

I have, and it really made me wonder about my choices. I found my answer at the muzzleloadingforum.com.

However, that said, I would not start with the Brown Bess for one reason, the trigger.

With other guns and the set triggers that they have, that takes away one of the bigger problems, trigger control. The other thing that tends to bother people new to flintlocks is the flash that goes off near your face. I was lucky, I was able to ignore it. How?

Because I couldn't see anything in front of the gun or anywhere near it once the flash and gun went off!

But I had great trigger control.

The Doc is out now.

PS, however, if you really want a Brown Bess, go for it. It's your decision after all, for your fun, not ours!

 

[4v50 Gary]

The other thing that tends to bother people new to flintlocks is the flash that goes off near your face. I was lucky, I was able to ignore it.

I concentrate on the front sight. The gun takes care of the rest.

 

[dougiefreshhh]

thanks all.

ok, so if not a bess, then what do you suggest for starter flintlock (colonial era)?

 

[Cosmoline]

I really like the poor boy southern mountain style. It's no frills and weighs about 3 lbs less than a big military musket. The trade guns area also excellent starters. Track makes a reasonably priced kit.

As you can see from the bickering on this thread, the world of flintlocks has some rather intense devotees who are liable to snap if prodded. Don't worry about them. Trust me these guns are loads of fun to build and shoot!

 

[JamesKelly]

A friend roasted some wild boar meat over our Tuesday campfire. Good stuff. Kilt it with his Bess.

Brown Bess muskets are heavy, unreliable, inaccurate, slow to load and filthy dirty. So get a .22.

IM(not so)HO, a Bess is a great start for an 18th Century guy. Pedersoli makes a sound, functional gun which can be modified here & there if you find it inauthentic. All BB's in the Revolution did not have 46" barrels. When the muzzle wore out, the gun was cut down somewhat & a new bayonet lug attached. I have a very used/abused 1st Model with a 36" barrel. Rogers' Rangers were said to have cut down their Long Land pattern muskets to 36" for ease of handling (I'm told they kick a lot at that barrel length). If you want to confuse the Thread Nazis, swap the flat sideplate of that Pedersoli for a rounded, long land pattern. A long land pattern triggerguard would be more of a hassle but can be done.

Geeze, just get the Brown Bess & some GOEX or Swiss & be done with it. Leave the barrel at 42".There are a couple hundred years' experience in how to load and shoot them. And there is about 700 years real experience with honest black gunpowder.

 

[arcticap]

Trade rifles seem to be offered in a wider variety of smoothbore calibers and gauges as small as .54 caliber and 28 gauge.

North Star West is a reputable maker of kits and finished trade guns.

http://www.northstarwest.com/

For starter flintlocks, there's also the Indian made trade gun or the Baker smooth rifle which has a rear sight.

http://www.middlesexvillagetrading.com/