State of the RKBA Movement...

[Don't Tread On Me]

Since 1934 till the mid 1990's, we've been hammered by anti-gun legislation. Even the pro-gun legistlation was tainted and really just anti-gun legislation or compromises. By that I mean, laws that reform existing gun-control, which is a concession that the RKBA is dead and that it is a privilege, since we have no right to really own anything without government approval or interference.

Everytime we reform a bill, or go after BATFE abuses, it is nothing more than agreeing with the current framework and status of the RKBA as a regulated privilege. Everytime someone argued the AWB was useless because it banned features, when real-machine guns were already banned, it was a concession that banning machine guns is OK. Everytime we argue in favor of licensed concealed carry, we win nothing but a regulated and taxed privilege that can be revoked at anytime by the whims of political movements. My goodness, we even have people who believe that giving COPS the right to conceal carry will somehow lead to their Rights. These are not RIGHTS!


If anyone's ever read my posts, they'd know, but I'll make it clear. I believe in a 100% completely unregulated RKBA. That means no NICS, no forms, no bans, no nothing. If someone wants to walk into a 7-11 at 3am and buy a fully automatic MP5 with armor piercing 9mm ammo. God bless them. I'm not unrealistic or crazy. This cannot be done overnight. It will take decades or longer. But, you have to start somewhere. The constitution is in exile. The RKBA is dead. We need to bring it back.


Anyway, here's what's been bothering me. We've successfully halted the gun control movement on the national level. The only states successfully implementing new gun control are the already anti-gun states like NY, NJ, California et al. While many THR members will feverously disagree with me, these states are complete and total lost causes for the RKBA. They will remain isolated gun-grabber havens forever. I feel that for the greater RKBA movement, they are irrelevant. They must be treated like a minority without a voice.

Carrying on. Since the 1990's, the gun control movement has been stale, public opinion, it seems, is that America isn't interested in gun control anymore. Also, people have more and more distrust of the government and police. The new generation is more information savvy and less trusting as a result. The future conditions are better for the liberation of the RKBA. People are beginning to really fear the loss of their Rights. (they're all gone already, but people are taking notice finally)


The NRA has a video on their NRA-ILA website called "25 year restoration of the Second Amendment". CLICK HERE FOR VIDEOThis video disturbs me because it implies that the Second Amendment HAS BEEN restored. I'm not going to bash the NRA for what it did all these years. I understand that the moves it had to make were out of desperation. That the movement has come a long way from the dark ages. The video clearly shows the significant and monumental changes they've made to get us to where we are now. I thank them for that. They did good, and they were the only show in town to keep us from being completely disarmed.


It just comes across to me as sending the message that they feel the Restoration is largely completed. This is bogus. Why do they feel this way? Do they believe they have no other major legislative goals left? Do they feel that further progress is futile or impossible? Are they just trying to take credit for a job not yet finished? Is this some kind of bogus Bush-style "mission accomplished" declaration?


Now that the gun-grabbers have been stopped. It is time to consider going on the offensive. It is time to STOP pursuing gun-control reforms, and begin a dialogue about REPEALS. At least begin a dialogue for repealment of past legislation if we can't get bills to the floor.


WE will never, ever, ever win a single thing if we continue to spend the time and money on reforming existing gun control. By doing so, we're just agreeing with it. We're agreeing that the existing gun control measures are fine with us. If that's what the NRA is about, then the NRA will become obsolete. If the NRA agrees with what's on the books and shows no motives or desires to keep moving forward, they will become irrelevant. They become an obsticle to the RKBA.


Yes, talking about repeals will earn us negative attacks and accusations of being radicals. But you will never get something that you don't fight for. If you don't start talking about it, you'll never get through the ridicule stage to change minds. It is no different than the smearing the NRA received for fighting hand-gun bans in the late 1970's.


I've been waiting the past 2 years since the successful blocking of an AWB renewal to see what is on the horizon. What is the next step? It appears that the NRA and the gun movement is trying to take on the mission of combating a U.N. gun ban. Sorry, I just don't buy it. While I believe the UN is indeed a threat to our RKBA, they aren't going to take our guns away anytime soon. I feel this is largely NRA scaremongering because they are too cowardly to take the next logical step which is to begin pushing for the repealment of unconstitutional gun control laws!!!!!!


They are trying to quickly steam ahead on a different page before gunowners take notice and start complaining about the 89 ban, the 86 ban, and all the others. The NRA would rather serve itself a plate of its choosing than accept what we demand of it.


I for one, don't believe that licensed concealed carry is the end-all be-all of the RKBA like many in the NRA and gun movement do. Once we get as many states as is humanly possible (there's 1-2 left) to conceal carry. We must begin with the most pro-gun states pushing for unregulated concealed carry. I'm looking for that next step. I'm looking for it on all levels. I just don't see it. This worries me. I don't want to see the gun movement just halt where it is until we get pushed back onto the defensive. It alarms me to see the NRA using its resources to push reform bills that really amount to ZERO change in the RKBA. What good is it? Sure, reducing gun-record abuses is good - however, there shouldn't be a record of anykind in the first place! That's the point. Finally, I know many of you will think that this is all impossible or improbable or not the right time.


To get anything, 1st you must believe. Without hope, there is nothing. 2nd, you must try. You have to start small, start somewhere. Show us that there is a goal to pursue and repeal the unconstitutional and tyrannical bans of the past. When I'll see that as a positive goal, I'll shut up.


What do you folks think?

 

[Don't Tread On Me]

Here's an example of WHY it is important to go on the offensive as I stated in the opening thread.

Imagine taking a state like Arizona or Wyoming and arguing in favor of unregulated concealed carry (no license needed).

We have everything in our favor! We have the argument that concealed carry licensees have a lower crime rate than uniformed police officers! There are dozens of arguments for why it is a success. Like the fact that there's no bloodshed in the streets. So forth and so on.

What would be the argument of those opposed to it? They have NO ARGUMENT. This is beauty of it. We'd be forcing them to argue that deregulating concealed carry would lead to criminals carrying guns. Or it would lead to killings or bloodshed.

How absurd is that? Explain Alaska or Vermont? Explain why every criminal carries regardless of the law? See why they have zero argument? Licensed concealed carry is (or should be) a gateway to unregulated concealed carry. It is an interim step. It is a step that proves that citizens are not bloodthirsty killers. Yes, our arguments are still flawed because the conduct of the civilian population IS NOT a factor in infringing upon the RKBA or liberating it. The RKBA isn't about good behavior or crime. But we can use these arguments because they achieve the final mission toward a goal. They might be flawed, but unlike the existing flawed pro-gun arguments, these do not hurt the final goal of restoring the RKBA. The flawed arguments of today, are killing us for the restoration of the RKBA tomorrow. We need to change the rhetoric.

We force them to admit that licensed concealed carriers are not criminals. We force them to concede the distinction between citizen and criminal. They lose all their anti concealed carry arguments in order to argue against unregulated concealed carry. They have to. They can't argue that they're against unregulated concealed carry because they're against licensed concealed carry. That is bogus since it is already law and established fact. In every way you can imagine, their entire basis for argument is totally undermined. It is a thing of beauty. Folks, really think about it. There is nothing they have, other than fear-mongering, to combat our goals. Nothing. We can counter fear mongering with education and proper arguments. At the very worst, we fall back on the existing licensed shall-issue carry. We lose nothing. While it is a privilege and not a right, it's better than nothing and we can sit comfortably on it while hammering away for unregulated carry.

We'd be doing to them, what they've been doing to us forever. Force them to compromise and negotiate on PRO-GUN terms, all while shooting themselves in the foot when it comes to the philosophical debate. That's what we've suffered. Everytime the NRA battles in favor of one form of gun control because it is less severe than another - they're getting us to agree to gun control in general. Turn the tables.


I don't want this thread to be about concealed carry, but I just wanted to point out why it is fundamentally important to begin the offensive. We have nothing to lose, and everything to gain. It is always better to be on offense than defense. If we begin making arguments for the repeal of the 89 ban, they'd have NO arguments either. Think about it. The AWB was defeated. There was no bloodshed in the streets. Again, the status of society, crime and behavior is not a reason to liberate or regulate the RKBA, but it does play on the American people's mind when it comes to the gun-grabbers fear mongering. What argument could they possibly mount against the 89 ban that they haven't already mounted during the AWB and they were defeated? Which one? They have nothing. The toughest bans will be the 34, 68 and 86. also in that order for difficulty too. Butyou gotta start somewhere.

 

[gego]

Very eloquent post. I agree that the 2nd is absolute and that any law passed restricting anything with arms is a violation of it, period.

 

[Zedicus]

Great post's, couldn't Agree more.

here's a comment i have in reply to this quote referring to the NRA

This is bogus. Why do they feel this way? Do they believe they have no other major legislative goals left? Do they feel that further progress is futile or impossible? Are they just trying to take credit for a job not yet finished? Is this some kind of bogus Bush-style "mission accomplished" declaration?

It's simply that there are "Still" to many on the Board of the NRA who are of the Disposition that RKBA is only about "Sporting Purposes" :banghead: such as Hunting, Skeet & IPSC & therefor couldn't care less about any other types of firearms other than Bolt action Rifles, Over-Under/Pump Shotguns, and Revolvers.

Why do I say that? It's such an Obvious Eyesore that it might as well be the size of the Former USSR...

I Honestly can't Understand how so many are blind to it.

 

[Don't Tread On Me]

I'm not blind to it. You raise a SERIOUS question about our movement.

We have saboteurs within. Two major obsticles are the pro-hunter types who feel the 2nd Amendment is about their stupid real-tree shotgun and bird hunting, and the other is domestic manufacturers.

Domestic firearm makers are the #1 obstacle to taking on the 89 import ban in my opinion, but I have zero proof of this. It is just by logic that I come to this conclusion. They simply do not want cheap AK's and combloc weapons taking away their sales. It is no mystery that Ruger and others take a massive beating when someone (like a rural low income gunowner) can go and buy a $200 rifle that is superb, instead of their JUNK costing $600.

Dr. Ron Paul (R - TX), who is mostly libertarian, has argued against the sporting purposes clause. The NRA won't touch it. It amazes me that the movement that killed the AWB supposedly cannot touch the 89 ban. It is absurd! The standard is no different.

I honestly don't know what we can do about the domestic industry and their influence in the NRA. I'm sure they are massive contributors and feel as though the NRA is their organization to protect their industry more than an organization to defend the RKBA in general. Our RKBA, in the pure way I envision it should be, does not profit them in any way. I having a fullauto, or a suppressor, or a Chinese made AK etc...serves them ZERO. There's no profit motive, and I doubt there ever will be.

As for the hunter people. We can deal with them. We can try an educate them with the politics of fear that their guns will also be banned after ours, or we can try and find a way to get around them. We shouldn't alienate them though. They'll go off and start joining hunter organizations that are really funded by gun-grabbers.

As the internet grows, every kid from now on will be more tech involved and more informational. I think many of us severely underestimate the power of discussion forums. I think the hunter types will fade in power as the youth are less interested in firearms for hunting, and more interested in firearms for defense. They will be marginalized eventually. Although, the domestic industry does support them and works with them. Just look at the massive number of "which AR" vs. "which deer rifle" here on this forum. We're going to take over eventually.

At least they aren't gun-grabbers. But, on the other hand, they aren't helpful at all, and undermine us constantly.


Given all of that, to get the NRA moving towards repeal would in part require we address these issues somehow. Maybe gun owners should stop writing letters to Congress and embark on a campaign to flood the NRA with letters demanding a policy change toward a more truly pro-gun NRA?

A big enough chunk of gun owners threatening to cancel their membership or sharing their disappointment with the NRA would at least wake them up, even if they don't decide to start tackling repeals.

Honestly, I'd rather see the NRA fight for repeals and LOSE over and over again than pass another meaningless pro-guncontrol reform bill.

 

[ProguninTN]

2A

Nice post Dont' Tread on Me.

the pro-hunter types who feel the 2nd Amendment is about their stupid real-tree shotgun and bird hunting

These people are very aggravating.

 

[Zedicus]

(Was going to post this last night but THR was having some problems.)

I'm not blind to it.

My Apologies, I wasn't trying to Imply that you were, rather that a LARGE percentage of the Pro-RKBA community are.

We have saboteurs within. Two major obstacles are the pro-hunter types who feel the 2nd Amendment is about their stupid real-tree shotgun and bird hunting, and the other is domestic manufacturers.

Only Some of the Domestic MFR's, I wouldn't paint them all with he same brush on that, Ronnie Barrett for EG is on our side and extremely active and a few others (Mostly Small MFR's) I can name appear to be on our side.

Although Ruger for example is obviously in bed with the Brady Camp & VPC, Colt might as well work for the VPC, and the Jury is still out on S&W.

Dr. Ron Paul (R - TX), who is mostly libertarian, has argued against the sporting purposes clause. The NRA won't touch it. It amazes me that the movement that killed the AWB supposedly cannot touch the 89 ban. It is absurd! The standard is no different.

Again, Down to the "Good Ole Boy Huntin Club" in the NRA Board and the outright Turncoats in the NRA Board.

Our RKBA, in the pure way I envision it should be, does not profit them in any way. I having a fullauto, or a suppressor, or a Chinese made AK etc...serves them ZERO. There's no profit motive, and I doubt there ever will be.

It could Profit them in several ways (accessory's & upgrade parts for example), but for some absurd reason they Are unwilling, even against Capitalizing on it.

Follow the Money, their has to be something Money related behind at least part of it.

As the internet grows, every kid from now on will be more tech involved and more informational. I think many of us severely underestimate the power of discussion forums.

True, but for how much Longer? Bureaucrats and Moronic politicians funded by the Anti's are pushing for Heavy Restrictions on the Current Internet and it's use, and tons more on the so-called "Internet 2", It is turning into an Information war of Credible Information vs Censorship and outright Dis-Info (AKA: lies) much like things are in Communist China, heck, Google and Yahoo are two of the main Financial forces driving it because they stand to gain Billions from the Chinese Internet market.

A big enough chunk of gun owners threatening to cancel their membership or sharing their disappointment with the NRA would at least wake them up, even if they don't decide to start tackling repeals.

Doubtful, Approx 90+% of NRA Members are "Life Members" the NRA already got all of the money they are going to get from them, so their is little if anything for them to loose in that regard. :banghead:

Honestly, I'd rather see the NRA fight for repeals and LOSE over and over again than pass another meaningless pro-guncontrol reform bill.

+1

Our best options are most likely to educate and organize, I mention organize because the Pro-RKBA Community is badly fragmented (many don't notice this either) partly due to the Saboteur's and the FUDD's ("Good Ole Boy Huntin Club").

 

[Green Lantern]

May not be relevant to the topic at hand....

I just find it depressing that GUN STORES are choosing not to trust their customer base that has earned a CCW permit. And I got an almost nauseated feeling when I came across one myself today.

Just think it's not a good day for RKBA and Self Defense when I have to begin a letter to a gun store of all places, "I can no longer shop at your store due to your stance against CCW."

 

[SomeKid]

so-called "Internet 2"

Doubtful, Approx 90+% of NRA Members are "Life Members" the NRA already got all of the money they are going to get from them, so their is little if anything for them to loose in that regard.

Whats the Internet 2?

Regarding the life NRA people being worthless to the NRA brass, you are wrong. Keep in mind, the NRA is always begging for money, and always hocking stuff. Piss off a lot of lifers, and they could still be out a chunk of change.

 

[Don't Tread On Me]

No offense to any life members, but I find a life membership to be completely worthless. You end up giving them everything up front and that's that. They have zero incentive to please you.

I much rather do a yearly membership, because then, I can tell them why I am not renewing. Money talks, BS well....

You have to keep something over their heads. Their language is money.

Anyway, this thread isn't an NRA bash. They do well, and have preserved what little of the RKBA we have left. The huge question remains, why not more towards real restoration of the Second Amendment? Not this phoney nonsense about Rights by accepting a MOUNTAIN gun regulations, restrictions and gun control.

Like I pointed out, nothing outside our own movement is stopping us from going after the import ban. Nothing is stopping us from starting unregulated concealed carry after we win the last state or two left. There are very few arguments they can make against us in a number of areas. 86 ban will be tough since we're talking real machine guns, but we have the basis to get them back. First by license according to the 1934 law, then..someday maybe liberate them (that's the ultimate goal for a future generation).

What we need is a vehicle, or a spokesperson for getting many of these arguments a little more into the mainstream public. The NRA ought to find themselves another Moses...except one that fights for repeals. The internet is working wonders for us...but we need more. My general feeling is that the NRA is finished. They have no agenda. They will default to fighting off minor gun control bills, while pushing industry related gun-control reforms. None of which adds once miniscule bit of improvement to the true RKBA. I think they have no spine to fight for what is right. Like I said, there's no monetary incentive to truly get a real RKBA established. It is all industry related.


We are at a fork in the road right now. The people who want a true RKBA, and the NRA have been together for the ride this long. The point has come where sides will have to decide which direction to go. I fear that the NRA, which is undoubtedly the only true force we have, will begin facing a lot of problems with gunowners as our movement, due in part to the internet, is becoming more and more purist in their view of the RKBA.

 

[ConstitutionCowboy]

Don't Tread On Me

I honestly don't know what we can do about the domestic industry and their influence in the NRA. I'm sure they are massive contributors and feel as though the NRA is their organization to protect their industry more than an organization to defend the RKBA in general. Our RKBA, in the pure way I envision it should be, does not profit them in any way. I having a full auto, or a suppressor, or a Chinese made AK etc...serves them ZERO. There's no profit motive, and I doubt there ever will be.

DTOM, I believe what we have here is called "protectionism". The ironic truth of protectionism is that those who rely upon it always end up the losers. ALWAYS. Look at our auto industry. The "invasion" of foreign autos was the best thing that could have happened to that industry. They had to get off there arses and produce a competitive product. They did.

An influx of cheaper arms into this country will not hurt our home based gun industry. I own guns, both made here and made abroad. The ones made here are the best for the money by far. But, that is not what will expand our gun industry or make it "safe" from imports. It's the market.

Removing the import bans will increase the number of gun owners in the US. The more gun owners we have, the larger the market will be for all arms, foreign AND domestic. It's like Lays Potato Chips. You can't have just one! Opening the market is the answer to the problems caused by protectionism. How do we further open the markets? Remove the infringements upon the Right to Keep and Bear Arms! The fools who have supported protectionism and arms limitations have done us and themselves a great disservice. I want a full auto .45ACP arm. I want a full auto .223 arm. If I ever hit the big bucks, I'll be in the market for a full auto .50BMG as well. That is about $12k in sales from just one guy, not to mention the ammo that would be consumed, the red dot scopes, bi/tripods, etc, etc.

If money talks, I hope they are listening. If freedom talks, I hope they are listening harder.

I'm on your side with this, as are may of us. It is not only reasonable, it is a must.

As for the NRA, there has been some movement toward the stand we want them to take. The actions against the confiscations in New Orleans is a good start.

Woody

Force in and of itself is neither here nor there as far as it being legitimate. It is the legitimate USE of force that should be in question.

A law abiding person keeping and bearing arms has force. An armed terrorist has force, too. Chances are that the law abiding person is more likely to engage in legitimate uses of that force, such as fending off that armed terrorist. That concept is valid for any scale from man to man on up to one half the world against the other half.

That which constitutes the legitimate use of force is in the mind of the holder of such force. To my mind, force used to protect freedom is legitimate, be it as isolated as for self defense against a criminal, or globally to destroy those who use or would use force to enslave. I believe it is a legitimate use of force to prevent diminishing an individuals access to, and right to keep and bear such force as well.

Might does not make right, but might is necessary to preserve that which is right. Fortunately, over time, human nature will keep the righteous in possession of the most might. Just don't relinquish any of your might or you'll foster a time when the unrighteous will hold the might. That'll bring on a Dark Age faster than anything nature can throw at us.