Static electric charges and BP Kaabooms!

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rajb123

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I have heard you cannot use a standard smokeless powder measure in a progressive reloading press to load rounds with BP because there is a danger of a static electric charge setting off your powder reservoir.

Can you use an earth ground to your powder measure to avoid this or should you use only a powder measure made from copper/brass?
 
I have heard you cannot use a standard smokeless powder measure in a progressive reloading press to load rounds with BP because there is a danger of a static electric charge setting off your powder reservoir.

I use a Hornady L-N-L progressive with standard powder measure and a MEC Sizemaster press to load my BP rounds. Have for years with no problems.

The static thing is a red herring IMNSHO. It's high concentrations of dust that are exposive when hit with a static discharge. Think grain elevators.
 
The static electricity and black powder myth has been pretty well explored (including tests) and put to rest. That said, black powder in the presence of a dust explosion from static electricity would not be a good thing, so keep your work area clean.
 
Static discharge

Just on general principles I would not want a static discharge around BP or smokeless. In line with that I'd say ground every thing in sight.

I work a lot with micro electronics where static discharge is a very serious issue. Besides ground every thing in sight we use various other precautions against static discharge.

BP or smokeless is not so easy to ignite with a static discharge as street wisdom would have it, but it doesn't hurt to take every precaution against it.
 
For years, Lyman advertised that their #55 powder measure would work with black powder and smokeless. It was only after BP cartridges became popular again that companies came out with "BP safe"models.
 
The problem that arises from using the standard powder measures is the ferrous (iron-based) metal construction is capable of promoting a spark which can and will set off your black powder.
The materials used in the bp safe powder measures are brass and aluminum, both of which are incapable of producing a spark under any circumstances.
 
standard static discharges from walking across a wool carpet on a winter day will not ignite black powder. Lightning is static electricity. Between the extremes of wool socks type static and Lightning, static electricity can and will ignite black powder.

At a museum nearby they had a machine that used glass panels and brushes. It would generate enough static that the sparks would burn a pin hole through a playing card.

Lyman and harry pope both sold early black powder measuring devices that used hoppers. I have never examined them to see if they were nonferrous or not.
 
zimmerstutzen said:
static electricity can and will ignite black powder
That's not true.

Black powder is only ignited by being heated to it's ignition temperature. Static electricity is by itself does not contain heat energy; it's pure electric energy, so it cannot heat black powder. In order to generate heat with static electricity, or any electrical energy for that matter, it must be passed through a resistive element. The heat is created by the resistance to the flow of electrical energy.

So in order for static electricity to ignite black powder, the powder must contain some contaminant that resists electrical energy, such as a metal filing or thin metal wire. The contaminant is heated, and if it reaches the black powder ignition temperature, then you will get ignition.

None of the ingredients used to create the black powder mixture are sufficiently resistive in nature to be heated to the black powder temperature.
 
I have two Lyman 55's one is their BP measure it had a aluminum cylinder but I'd used the other for many many years without problems.
 
One would think that since there are warnings out there concerning not using BP in certain powder feeders that there must be a reason. You have to decide if that reason is so manufacturers can sell more powder feeders, or if that reason is because at least once, someone blew a hopper of BP up in their face, or if that reason is because the lawyers told them to say it, so just in case it happens they can say "I told you not to do that."

I would like to see definitive proof that it has happened. Kinda like pointed bullets in a lever action. I've never see actual evidence for either.
 
BULK POWDER ELECTROSTATICS HAZARDS EVALUATION is a pretty good read on the subject, though it does get pretty technical and pertains more to the bulk powder manufacturing process and handling than an individuals home reloading bench.

Sort of humorous is that I have seen no shortage of approved ESD (Electro Static Discharge) work stations for working on sensitive electronics, including wrist straps but I never gave any thought to an ESD workstation for reloading. :)

Ron
 
Mykeal: what you say only makes partial sense. If a spark can be so hot that it burns a hole through a pasteboard playing card it is hot enough to ignite black powder. Lightning can melt sand on the beach and leave a clump of glass.

Your explanation also assumes that only a few pure elements are present in the powder. Charcoal from alder wood or whatever still bears the minerals that were taken up by the tree from the soil. Goex at one time sterilized the water used in making powder by boiling it in copper pots. This left trace amounts of copper in the powder which retarded the growth of bacteria in the powder.

Sand is mostly silica a rather non-conductive material, yet lightning melts it.

A spark that is hot enough to burn a 1 or 2 mm hole through a playing card, is hot enough to ignite powder. It does not need resistance or concentrations of metal to become hot through resistance if the spark itself has sufficient heat.
 
A good friend of mine got a mass of first and second-degree burns when some 3fg ignited in his face. He was pouring it out of a copper flask and into a glass bowl when it ignited. He was wearing a wool sweater, and that was the only possible spark source near him. No cigarette or open flame, just that sweater.

Of course, before he roasted himself, he had intended to pour the powder down an anthill and light it to see if he could blow the hill to smithereens...
 
Reloadron. Thanks for the link. That fellow put a lot of work into it to get an ignition.
 
Ron beat me too it, that should put any questions to rest. I watched a video where a guy was trying to use electric ignition and he was blowing the powder out without igniting it. edit: this is the guy.
 
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Static electricity is by itself does not contain heat energy; it's pure electric energy, so it cannot heat black powder. In order to generate heat with static electricity, or any electrical energy for that matter, it must be passed through a resistive element. The heat is created by the resistance to the flow of electrical energy.

Howdy

I too worked in the electronics industry for many, many years, and have a pretty good understanding of Static Electricity. In the electronics industry it is referred to as Electro Static Discharge (ESD).

A static spark is exactly like a lightning bolt, only much smaller in scale. As for heat, The exact same thing happens with a static spark as happens with a lightning bolt. Yes, you need a resistive element for the current to pass through to create heat. The resistive element is air. Air makes a very good insulator. When a charge, static or otherwise, builds up to a great enough potential, the charge leaps across the air gap from one conductor to another. That is exactly what happens with a lightning bolt and the same thing happens with ESD. The air separating the conductors is heated to a white hot plasma by the charge going through it. That is what you see with a lightning bolt, and that is what you see when you actually see a visible spark jumping from your hand to a door knob on a dry day. Super heated air. Probably in the vicinity of 1000 degrees F or so.

I go through about 25 pounds of Black Powder every year loading my CAS ammo.

Yes, I have seen those internet photos of sparks and grains of Black Powder a bazillion times. What is probably happening is that the graphite coating on the outside of the grains makes a pretty good conductor. So rather than the charge flowing through the powder grains, it flows over the surface of the grains, with little resistance, so there is not enough resistance to raise the temperature very much.

Another misconception is that grounding the press will help avoid static discharge. Your body and your clothing generate a static charge every time you move. That is part of the nature of ESD. That's why walking across a rug on a dry day generates a charge on your body, your body passing through the air, but mostly because your shoes scuffing the carpet lead to a buildup of charge on you. If you ground your loading press, you are just creating a perfect path for the charge you build up on your body to go to ground. And EVERY SINGLE TIME you touch the press, a tiny spark will jump from you to the press. EVERY SINGLE TIME. You probably will not feel the spark, it takes about 10,000 volts before we can actually feel a static charge. Yes, 10,000 volts. Very low amperage, but very high voltage. So unless you ground your self, and the entire workstation, only grounding the press is useless. In the electronics industry, static discharges ruin millions of dollars worth of tiny sensitive components every year. The standard industry solutions are:

Ground the operator with a wrist strap.
Ground the entire work station.
Raise the humidity level in the air (static charges bleed off more easily and are less likely to build up if there is more humidity in the air)
Remove all static generating materials.

If it ain't a conductor, such as metals, then it is an insulator, and ALL insulators generate static charges. These include glass, most plastics, paper, and wood. Not a great idea to pour loose black powder into a glass bottle. I know lots of guys who have replaced the plastic hopper on their shotgun loading presses with glass ones. They have only substituted one static generating material for another.

Yes, plenty of CAS shooters will testify that they have loaded Black Powder on conventional loading equipment for years. I know too much about ESD to allow me to do that. Yes, I have a Lyman BP measure mounted on one of my presses. The rotor is made of brass instead of steel so it is non-sparking. I also try not to load BP during the dry winter months, so there will be a bit more humidity in the air.

Yes, mechanical sparks made by ferric metals striking objects and ESD sparks are two different things. Mechanical sparks, such as when flint hits a frizzen, contain a tiny shard of white hot metal at their core. These sparks are very, very efficient at igniting Black Powder.
 
And, as always, No one can explain things (firearm related) like Driftwood Johnson.
Keep up the good words D.J. , glad to see you here at the THR bp pages.
 
This thread, though excellent and informative still has me concerned and all of a sudden worried. I apologize for not being able to comprehend some of these well thought out and educated post's.

While in my home during the cold dry winter months, is it risky to pour powder from the Goex can to my flask as I prepare to go to the range?

Have I and many of us just been lucky all these years?
 
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