Black powder, plastic, and static electricity

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Do you wear it on your wrist or mounted to the measure somehow? I'd be more likely to utilize it if it were a "strap it and forget it" deal.

I've seen the recommendations to blow the "fines" out each time after you're done using the measure with BP...
 
What is not being said here is that plastic is not plastic because there are many different kinds made each with advantages and disadvantages (just like metal alloys.) The variant that is suited to the task at hand the best (hopefully if the maker is not a cheapskate or something) is likely what is used.

I for one as a coffee grinder user know that there are plastics specifically designed to not hold significant static charges. They are used for coffee grinder catch cups and grinder parts. Static charges cause coffee grinds and powder in general to cling to the sides of the plastic and can also literally cause coffee grounds to shoot off into the air when disturbed.

My guess would be companies that make these products (powder measures etc..) know the type of plastics that need to be used.

Also I would not likely be easily convinced that a static flash in the presence of black powder is not going to present a danger to me if I am close by especially if warnings are posted of such by black powder manufactures and known data suggests ignition can happen..
 
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Howdy

I know a fair amount about static electricity because I worked in the electronics industry for many years. I took a refresher course every year about what static electricity can do regarding delicate electronic circuits. Every year we would view magnified slides of microprocessors and other tiny circuits, showing the damage caused by tiny static discharges too small to be felt. Typically they looked like tiny bomb craters.

Let's get a few definitions straight first.

Static electricity is called that because the charge is static. It does not move, as current does in a wire. Static charges simply sit on the surface of an object until an object with an opposing charge gets close enough and then the charge jumps to the second object. This happens instantaneously, draining the static charge from both objects and returning them to a neutral state. When the charge jumps to another object, it is called Electro Static Discharge (ESD). Air is a good insulating material. Air prevents a static charge from moving from one charged object to another. When the two objects get close enough to each other, the charge overcomes the electrical resistance of the air, and jumps from one object to the other, creating an electrical spark. A gigantic example of ESD is a lightning bolt, when the electrical charge created in clouds overcomes the elecrical resistance of the atmosphere, and jumps to ground, in this case the Earth.

There are basically two types of materials we are talking about here, conductors and static generators. A conductor, for want of a better term, conducts current. Most metals are good conductors, copper is a terrific conductor, that is why it is used for wire.

Any material that does not conduct electricity can be considered a static charge generator. A few examples are wood, paper, glass, and most plastics. Some plastics have a bit of conductive material added to them to allow them to slowly dissipate a static charge, but that is a subject for a different discussion.

A static charge is generated when a non-conductor (a static generator) rubs against or is near another static generator.

The threshold of when we can physically feel a spark created by ESD is several thousand volts. When you drag your feet across a rug on a dry day and then touch a doorknob, that is what we are talking about. Yes, several thousand volts, but very low amperage, that is why it does not hurt us. You will probably see the spark, you will probably hear a tiny crack, and you will probably feel it jump across the air between your finger and the door knob. But here is the crux of the matter. Every single time a charged object comes close to another charged object a spark jumps between them, whether or not it can be seen or felt. EVERY TIME. And every time a spark jumps, the natural resistance of the air causes the spark to heat the air. The air gets very, very hot. Hot enough that the air is heated to incandescence. That is why we see a spark. We are seeing the superheated air in the path of the spark, whether it is a tiny spark jumping from our finger or a lightning bolt.

I have seen those photos of the experiment of trying to ignite Black Powder a bazillion times over the years. They are not representative of what happens when an ESD spark happens.

What is going on there is the charge is freely flowing over the surface of the powder grains without encountering enough resistance to generate enough heat to ignite the powder. Remember I said sparks are very, very hot? That is simple electrical resistance. Any time current flows, if the medium it flows through presents resistance, heat is generated, no different than the filament in a light bulb or the heating elements in a toaster. Modern Black Powder has a graphite coating on the powder granules. I'm not exactly sure why, perhaps so it will flow more easily through a powder measure, but in any case, graphite is a pretty good conductor. So when the charge is directed at the powder in those photos, it is flowing freely over the graphite coating on the surface of the grains without encountering enough resistance to generate enough heat to ignite the powder.

How does all this apply to Black Powder and static electricity? It is not an issue because the static charges dissipate over the surface of the powder without generating enough heat to ignite the powder.

Should we ground our powder measures or our reloading presses? No, it is a pointless exercise. Every time you move, you create a static charge on your body. Even though our bodies are mostly water, our skin is a pretty good insulator, so moving through the air we generate a static charge on our skin. Every single tiny movement creates a static charge on us, and every single time we touch something with an opposite charge, a spark jumps through the air between us and ground. When I worked in the electronic industry a great deal of effort was made in the assembly areas to reduce the damage a tiny ESD spark would cause to delicate electronic circuits. Basically, a charge was never allowed to build on the workers. This was done by keeping the humidity high in the work area so a charge would be less likely to build. Static generating materials such as paper or plastic were not allowed at the work stations. All work stations were grounded, usually with a static dissapative (a material that drains charges slowly, so heat is not generated) mat that was connected to ground. All the workers wore a wrist strap that connected them to ground. The wrist strap had a resistor in it in case the worker accidentally touched a live electrical circuit, so they would not be electrocuted. The floor was treated with a static dissapative coating, and the chairs had a chain that dragged across the floor, dissipating any charges before they could build.

My point is, unless you want to go to all those extremes, you are kidding yourself if you think grounding your press will accomplish anything. Every time you move you are creating a charge on yourself. And every time you touch the handle of the press, a tiny spark, too small to be felt, jumps between you and the handle. Unless you create a static free work station such as I described, grounding the press will accomplish nothing.

Our saving grace is that the graphite coating on modern powder allows the charge to flow over the surface of the grains without generating enough heat to ignite the powder.

That's it.

Why do grain elevators explode? Because air filled with tiny particles of dust is an explosive mixture. It does not matter if it is flour, or saw dust, or fine dust of Black Powder. Each tiny particle has enough surface area surrounded by oxygen that it ignites easily. So any source of ignition, including ESD has the potential to create an explosion.

Why do Black Powder factories explode? Generally it is because foreign objects get into the hopper during the grinding operation for the corning process, creating friction. Friction is a great way to generate heat.

Do powder factories have lightning rods? Of course they do. A lightning bolt generates a tremendous amount of heat. Plenty to ignite all the powder in the factory.

Will Black Powder ignite purely from concussive force? Yes, but it is very difficult to duplicate in the laboratory. Simply compressing the powder in a compression die does not generate enough heat. I suspect if you laid some powder grains on a hard surface and struck them just right with a hammer you could ignite them, but I am not going to try.

Why does the spark in a flintlock ignite Black Powder? Because it is a mechanical spark, not an electrical spark. When flint strikes steel tiny shards of metal are shaved off the frizzen and are glowing red hot. When they fall in the powder in the pan, they ignite the powder, but they are not electrical sparks.

Which brings me to another point. I load most of my Black Powder cartridges using a Lyman Black powder measure. The only difference between this powder measure and Lyman's standard powder measure is it has an aluminum hopper rather than a plastic one. Supposedly this is to reduce static buildup, but as I have just explained that is pointless. Yes, there is a baffle inside the hopper and there is not a baffle inside a standard Lyman powder measure. This probably helps keep the charges consistent as the level of powder in the hopper changes. The value to me of the aluminum hopper is it is much bigger than the standard plastic hopper. Black Powder charges generally require much more powder than Smokeless because it is less energetic than Smokeless powder. The aluminum hopper on my Lyman Black Powder measure holds almost an entire pound of powder. I will go through a pound of powder loading 200 rounds of 45 Colt or 44-40. A full pound, I only get around 200 loads out of a pound of powder. So that big aluminum hopper means I do not have to fill it as often. But down inside where it really matters, the rotor of the powder measure is brass. The brass rotor rotates in the iron body of the powder measure. Brass will not create a mechanical spark if it strikes iron or steel, so that is good insurance against an accidental creation of a mechanical spark.

I have been loading Black Powder into my cartridges for many years. My presses are not grounded for the reasons I have already stated. However I try to do most of my Black Powder loading in the summer while the air is humid rather than in the winter when the air is dry. Remember what I said about high humidity in electronics assembly areas?

Blowing the 'fines' out of the press? Many years ago when I was done loading Black Powder I simply emptied the powder from the hopper and that was it. Then one day I went down into the basement to load some cartridges, and the rotor on the powder measure was stuck and would not rotate. Black Powder is very, very dry, and if left uncovered it will attract moisture from the air. What had happened was the fine powder dust still in the rotor area of the powder measure had attracted enough moisture from the air that the brass rotor had a coating of corrosion and got stuck to the iron body. So now when I am done with a loading session I always remove the rotor and wipe it off with a paper towel and I wipe the cavity in the iron body off too, to remove the fine powder dust that accumulates there. Then I do not replace the rotor, I leave it out until the next loading session, so no corrosion will have a chance to form. I have several different rotors for several different charges, each one set to deliver a specific charge. This way, I can quickly put the appropriate rotor into the press at the beginning of a loading session and I don't have to worry about the rotor getting stuck from corrosion.

Here is a photo of some of the rotors I use for my Lyman Black Powder measure. I buy old Lyman #55 powder measures whenever I find them on the white elephant table at a gun show. They are the same as the rotor used in the Lyman Black Powder measure. Notice the brass rotating body. They are held in place with one screw so they are quick to install, and they sit on a shelf on my bench, dusted for powder fines so they do not corrode.

pnQi4DC0j.jpg




Plastic powder containers. Yes, most Black Powder comes in plastic bottles these days, not like the metal cans of the old days. Has the plastic been loaded with a conductive material to make it static dissapative? I have no idea. I do not have the equipment to determine that. You need more than a simple digital multimeter.




Lee dippers: I used Lee dippers for years. They do not have enough surface area to generate a significant static charge. I still use them on occasion for some cartridges that I do not have a rotor for. I do not rinse them or do anything with them. I simply put them back on the shelf. Notice how some of them have been permanently stained because they have dipped so many charges of Black Powder over the years.

poKuEsqQj.jpg




One last thing. A number of years ago I spent some time in Florence Italy. There is a museum in Florence called the Museo Galileo (Galileo Museum). A great collection of scientific objects from the time of Galileo. Not limited to his inventions, there is stuff from other early scientists there too.

These are called Thunder Houses. They were used by very early experimenters with electricity to demonstrate some of the properties of electricity. A small charge of Black Powder was placed on the brass pedestal in the center of the house. Notice a chain connects the pedestal to the brass ball at the top of the rod. Notice the rod resembles a lightning rod. Once the charge of powder was placed on the pedestal, the box was closed. Remember Ben Franklin's experiments with electricity? He used a device called a Leyden Jar to store electrical charges. Sort of an early version of the capacitor. After the Thunder Box was closed a probe from a Leyden Jar was applied to the brass sphere. The resulting electrical discharge ignited the powder on the pedestal and blew the box open at its hinges. So much for electric discharges not being able to ignite Black Powder. These Thunder Boxes are modern replicas of the originals. The originals were probably used in Franklin's time, the 1700s. The powder absolutely ignited when the charge was applied to the brass ball. I have no idea if they have been tried with modern powder with a graphite coating, but the charge ignited the powder used in the 1700s.

pmR4XPukj.jpg

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Last edited:
Howdy

I know a fair amount about static electricity because I worked in the electronics industry for many years. I took a refresher course every year about what static electricity can do regarding delicate electronic circuits. Every year we would view magnified slides of microprocessors and other tiny circuits, showing the damage caused by tiny static discharges too small to be felt. Typically they looked like tiny bomb craters.

Let's get a few definitions straight first.

Static electricity is called that because the charge is static. It does not move, as current does in a wire. Static charges simply sit on the surface of an object until an object with an opposing charge gets close enough and then the charge jumps to the second object. This happens instantaneously, draining the static charge from both objects and returning them to a neutral state. When the charge jumps to another object, it is called Electro Static Discharge (ESD). Air is a good insulating material. Air prevents a static charge from moving from one charged object to another. When the two objects get close enough to each other, the charge overcomes the electrical resistance of the air, and jumps from one object to the other, creating an electrical spark. A gigantic example of ESD is a lightning bolt, when the electrical charge created in clouds overcomes the elecrical resistance of the atmosphere, and jumps to ground, in this case the Earth.

There are basically two types of materials we are talking about here, conductors and static generators. A conductor, for want of a better term, conducts current. Most metals are good conductors, copper is a terrific conductor, that is why it is used for wire.

Any material that does not conduct electricity can be considered a static charge generator. A few examples are wood, paper, glass, and most plastics. Some plastics have a bit of conductive material added to them to allow them to slowly dissipate a static charge, but that is a subject for a different discussion.

A static charge is generated when a non-conductor (a static generator) rubs against or is near another static generator.

The threshold of when we can physically feel a spark created by ESD is several thousand volts. When you drag your feet across a rug on a dry day and then touch a doorknob, that is what we are talking about. Yes, several thousand volts, but very low amperage, that is why it does not hurt us. You will probably see the spark, you will probably hear a tiny crack, and you will probably feel it jump across the air between your finger and the door knob. But here is the crux of the matter. Every single time a charged object comes close to another charged object a spark jumps between them, whether or not it can be seen or felt. EVERY TIME. And every time a spark jumps, the natural resistance of the air causes the spark to heat the air. The air gets very, very hot. Hot enough that the air is heated to incandescence. That is why we see a spark. We are seeing the superheated air in the path of the spark, whether it is a tiny spark jumping from our finger or a lightning bolt.

I have seen those photos of the experiment of trying to ignite Black Powder a bazillion times over the years. They are not representative of what happens when an ESD spark happens.

What is going on there is the charge is freely flowing over the surface of the powder grains without encountering enough resistance to generate enough heat to ignite the powder. Remember I said sparks are very, very hot? That is simple electrical resistance. Any time current flows, if the medium it flows through presents resistance, heat is generated, no different than the filament in a light bulb or the heating elements in a toaster. Modern Black Powder has a graphite coating on the powder granules. I'm not exactly sure why, perhaps so it will flow more easily through a powder measure, but in any case, graphite is a pretty good conductor. So when the charge is directed at the powder in those photos, it is flowing freely over the graphite coating on the surface of the grains without encountering enough resistance to generate enough heat to ignite the powder.

How does all this apply to Black Powder and static electricity? It is not an issue because the static charges dissipate over the surface of the powder without generating enough heat to ignite the powder.

Should we ground our powder measures or our reloading presses? No, it is a pointless exercise. Every time you move, you create a static charge on your body. Even though our bodies are mostly water, our skin is a pretty good insulator, so moving through the air we generate a static charge on our skin. Every single tiny movement creates a static charge on us, and every single time we touch something with an opposite charge, a spark jumps through the air between us and ground. When I worked in the electronic industry a great deal of effort was made in the assembly areas to reduce the damage a tiny ESD spark would cause to delicate electronic circuits. Basically, a charge was never allowed to build on the workers. This was done by keeping the humidity high in the work area so a charge would be less likely to build. Static generating materials such as paper or plastic were not allowed at the work stations. All work stations were grounded, usually with a static dissapative (a material that drains charges slowly, so heat is not generated) mat that was connected to ground. All the workers wore a wrist strap that connected them to ground. The wrist strap had a resistor in it in case the worker accidentally touched a live electrical circuit, so they would not be electrocuted. The floor was treated with a static dissapative coating, and the chairs had a chain that dragged across the floor, dissipating any charges before they could build.

My point is, unless you want to go to all those extremes, you are kidding yourself if you think grounding your press will accomplish anything. Every time you move you are creating a charge on yourself. And every time you touch the handle of the press, a tiny spark, too small to be felt, jumps between you and the handle. Unless you create a static free work station such as I described, grounding the press will accomplish nothing.

Our saving grace is that the graphite coating on modern powder allows the charge to flow over the surface of the grains without generating enough heat to ignite the powder.

That's it.

Why do grain elevators explode? Because air filled with tiny particles of dust is an explosive mixture. It does not matter if it is flour, or saw dust, or fine dust of Black Powder. Each tiny particle has enough surface area surrounded by oxygen that it ignites easily. So any source of ignition, including ESD has the potential to create an explosion.

Why do Black Powder factories explode? Generally it is because foreign objects get into the hopper during the grinding operation for the corning process, creating friction. Friction is a great way to generate heat.

Do powder factories have lightning rods? Of course they do. A lightning bolt generates a tremendous amount of heat. Plenty to ignite all the powder in the factory.

Will Black Powder ignite purely from concussive force? Yes, but it is very difficult to duplicate in the laboratory. Simply compressing the powder in a compression die does not generate enough heat. I suspect if you laid some powder grains on a hard surface and struck them just right with a hammer you could ignite them, but I am not going to try.

Why does the spark in a flintlock ignite Black Powder? Because it is a mechanical spark, not an electrical spark. When flint strikes steel tiny shards of metal are shaved off the frizzen and are glowing red hot. When they fall in the powder in the pan, they ignite the powder, but they are not electrical sparks.

Which brings me to another point. I load most of my Black Powder cartridges using a Lyman Black powder measure. The only difference between this powder measure and Lyman's standard powder measure is it has an aluminum hopper rather than a plastic one. Supposedly this is to reduce static buildup, but as I have just explained that is pointless. The value of the aluminum hopper is it is much bigger than the standard plastic hopper. Black Powder charges generally require much more powder than Smokeless because it is less energetic than Smokeless powder. The aluminum hopper on my Lyman Black Powder measure holds almost an entire pound of powder. I will go through a pound of powder loading 200 rounds of 45 Colt or 44-40. A full pound, I only get around 200 loads out of a pound of powder. So that big aluminum hopper means I do not have to fill it as often. But down inside where it really matters, the rotor of the powder measure is brass. The brass rotor rotates in the iron body of the powder measure. Brass will not create a mechanical spark if it strikes iron or steel, so that is good insurance against an accidental creation of a mechanical spark.

I have been loading Black Powder into my cartridges for many years. My presses are not grounded for the reasons I have already stated. However I try to do most of my Black Powder loading in the summer while the air is humid rather than in the winter when the air is dry. Remember what I said about high humidity in electronics assembly areas?

Blowing the 'fines' out of the press? Many years ago when I was done loading Black Powder I simply emptied the powder from the hopper and that was it. Then one day I went down into the basement to load some cartridges, and the rotor on the powder measure was stuck and would not rotate. Black Powder is very, very dry, and if left uncovered it will attract moisture from the air. What had happened was the fine powder dust still in the rotor area of the powder measure had attracted enough moisture from the air that the brass rotor had a coating of corrosion and got stuck to the iron body. So now when I am done with a loading session I always remove the rotor and wipe it off with a paper towel and I wipe the cavity in the iron body off too, to remove the fine powder dust that accumulates there. Then I do not replace the rotor, I leave it out until the next loading session, so no corrosion will have a chance to form. I have several different rotors for several different charges, each one set to deliver a specific charge. This way, I can quickly put the appropriate rotor into the press at the beginning of a loading session and I don't have to worry about the rotor getting stuck from corrosion.

Here is a photo of some of the rotors I use for my Lyman Black Powder measure. I buy old Lyman #55 powder measures whenever I find them on the white elephant table at a gun show. They are the same as the rotor used in the Lyman Black Powder measure. Notice the brass rotating body. They are held in place with one screw so they are quick to install, and they sit on a shelf on my bench, dusted for powder fines so they do not corrode.

View attachment 937220




Plastic powder containers. Yes, most Black Powder comes in plastic bottles these days, not like the metal cans of the old days. Has the plastic been loaded with a conductive material to make it static dissapative? I have no idea. I do not have the equipment to determine that. You need more than a simple digital multimeter.




Lee dippers: I used Lee dippers for years. They do not have enough surface area to generate a significant static charge. I still use them on occasion for some cartridges that I do not have a rotor for. I do not rinse them or do anything with them. I simply put them back on the shelf.

View attachment 937221




One last thing. A number of years ago I spent some time in Florence Italy. There is a museum in Florence called the Museo Galileo (Galileo Museum). A great collection of scientific objects from the time of Galileo. Not limited to his inventions, there is stuff from other early scientists there too.

These are called Thunder Houses. They were used by very early experimenters with electricity to demonstrate some of the properties of electricity. A small charge of Black Powder was placed on the brass pedestal in the center of the house. Notice a chain connects the pedestal to the brass ball at the top of the rod. Notice the rod resembles a lightning rod. Once the charge of powder was placed on the pedestal, the box was closed. Remember Ben Franklin's experiments with electricity? He used a device called a Leyden Jar to store electrical charges. Sort of a for runner of a capacitor. After the Thunder Box was closed a probe from a Leyden Jar was applied to the brass sphere. The resulting electrical discharge ignited the powder on the pedestal and blew the box open at its hinges. So much for electric discharges not being able to ignite Black Powder. These Thunder Boxes are modern replicas of the originals. The originals were probably used in Franklin's time, the 1700s. The powder absolutely ignited when the charge was applied to the brass ball. I have no idea if they have been tired with modern powder with a graphite coating, but the charge ignited the powder used in the 1700s.

View attachment 937222

View attachment 937223
Wow. Once again, very interesting read. Thanks Driftwood.
 
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