Steel core handgun ammo ?

[Dave P.]

Came across some surplus 7.62 Nagant handgun ammo.
It has steel "cores" about .230in dia. x .500in long inside the
lead bullets. Being that this is a handgun round is it something
the ATF has decided is armor piercing?
Checking before I stock up on some....try to stay legal
with stuff.
Thanks
Dave

 

[NavyLCDR]

Depends largely upon what state you are in. Federal law only prohibits the manufacturing, importing, selling and delivery of "armor piercing" ammunition. Federal law does not prohibit the buying or possession of "armor piercing" ammunition.

18 USC 922:

(a) It shall be unlawful—
(7) for any person to manufacture or import armor piercing ammunition, unless—
(A) the manufacture of such ammunition is for the use of the United States, any department or agency of the United States, any State, or any department, agency, or political subdivision of a State;
(B) the manufacture of such ammunition is for the purpose of exportation; or
(C) the manufacture or importation of such ammunition is for the purpose of testing or experimentation and has been authorized by the Attorney General;
(8) for any manufacturer or importer to sell or deliver armor piercing ammunition, unless such sale or delivery—
(A) is for the use of the United States, any department or agency of the United States, any State, or any department, agency, or political subdivision of a State;
(B) is for the purpose of exportation; or
(C) is for the purpose of testing or experimentation and has been authorized by the Attorney General;

 

[NavyLCDR]

The definition of "armor piercing" is in 18 USC 921:

(17)
(A) The term “ammunition” means ammunition or cartridge cases, primers, bullets, or propellent powder designed for use in any firearm.
(B) The term “armor piercing ammunition” means—
(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or
(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.
(C) The term “armor piercing ammunition” does not include shotgun shot required by Federal or State environmental or game regulations for hunting purposes, a frangible projectile designed for target shooting, a projectile which the Attorney General finds is primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes, or any other projectile or projectile core which the Attorney General finds is intended to be used for industrial purposes, including a charge used in an oil and gas well perforating device.

 

[Jim Watson]

Federal law only prohibits the manufacturing, importing, selling and delivery...
Federal law does not prohibit the buying or possession of "armor piercing" ammunition.

Sounds like a distinction without a difference.
How can you buy and gain possession without somebody doing the selling and delivery?
While you may not be breaking the letter of the law, you could very well end up as a material witness in "protective custody" in the next cell.

(I am not a lawyer, but I am extremely wary of the many ways the judicial system can work you over.)

 

[Dave P.]

Here's a picture of a round cut open, ignore the slight cut
on the core....gotta little deep with the mill.



Been looking at Michigan law, can't tell yet.
Dave

 

[Dave P.]

I reading what I can find it looks like a retailer would be in violation
for selling this stuff. That core is some kind of "steel/iron" at
least it's magnetic.
Dave

 

[PabloJ]

I would not release name of retailer or ammo manufacturer to general public. We do not want someone to extract bullets and load them into 7,62x25mm case. At those velocities it could put those that wear body armor at risk. This would not be good at all.

 

[NG VI]

Haven't they been selling mild steel core pistol ammunition like that for years for the 9x18 Makarov?

As I read it, the bullet isn't considered armor-piercing for a couple of reasons, because the jacket does not equal 25 percent of the total weight and the projectile is not a solid piece of steel or one of the other materials which cannot be the sole component.

It says it can't be a blend of the restricted materials, but it reads as though the only blends that are prohibited are blends composed entirely of those materials, it looks like a little steel component to the lead core is not by itself unacceptable.

And I can't imagine that the wholesalers, distributors, and importers of the ammunition haven't gotten some legal guidance before putting the money down on this ammunition. I know the ATF has a history of histrionically changing their minds at will on issues that can put people in serious legal jeopardy but have otherwise no impact on the world at large, but these guys would do the legwork to keep in the clear, keep their businesses alive and themselves out of prison.

 

[Dave P.]

NG,
I don't know about the Mak ammo, haven't ran across this type of stuff before
in handgun calibers.
You'd think retailers would be sure what they are selling is legal, but I wonder in
this case if they even know what they're selling.
Hence the original question.
Dave

 

[NG VI]

Honestly the way the law is written and the way businesses are generally run, you have nothing to worry about. The laws are written to prohibit the manufacture and importation for sale on the open market, nothing at all in the law about the possession or purchase of it, so regardless it's not even an issue for anyone but the importer if they didn't do their homework well enough, and going off the law and composition of the bullets, they are not armor piercing anyway.

 

[suemarkp]

As I read it, the bullet isn't considered armor-piercing for a couple of reasons, because the jacket does not equal 25 percent of the total weight and the projectile is not a solid piece of steel or one of the other materials which cannot be the sole component.

The rule says "a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; "

The 25% jacket thickness is a separate rule.

 

[golden]

May not be allowed at the range

One range I shoot at does not allow steel jacketed ammo. They claim it can damage their backstop.

Jim

 

[Dave P.]

I was reading the rule and looking at the part about the "projectile core".
That, and I have some 8mm rifle ammo (armor piercing) that is
made the same way.....like a lot of firearm issues...not to clear.
Dave

 

[kingcheese]

I think the key is that it is "obsolete" , being that it might be overlooked because of the age of the gun its used in, i didn't know it was steel core

 

[NG VI]

The rule says "a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; "

The 25% jacket thickness is a separate rule.

Yes, it is, and that ammunition violates neither of the two separate rules.

The jacket is clearly not 25% of the weight, and the projectile or core is neither composed entirely of one of the limited-use materials nor a blend of limited-use materials.

I was addressing both of the ways in which the ammunition could cause problems for the importer at the same time, and also noting that the end buyer and user faces absolutely no issues at all from purchasing it even if it were restricted.

 

[powell&hyde]

This should answer your question. http://www.recguns.com/Sources/IIG1.html

 

[suemarkp]

Yes, it is, and that ammunition violates neither of the two separate rules.

The jacket is clearly not 25% of the weight, and the projectile or core is neither composed entirely of one of the limited-use materials nor a blend of limited-use materials.

This is similar to the SS109 223 bullet -- copper jacket, steel core, and a lead core. I"m not sure why SS109s aren't considered armor piercing -- perhaps someone deemed them as suitable sporting use. There's enough vagueness (define core, can it have 2 cores, define traces, is there a handgun in this caliber) that I wouldn't want to be making or importing things like this.

But as you indicated, possession isn't a problem. It is the manufacturer or importer who has to worry.

 

[Dave P.]

Thanks for the link, the explanation about the construction helped my
understanding. Sounds like they consider the "core" to be everything
other than the jacket. I was thinking the steel was the core and the lead
was....well.....something else I guess.
Dave

 

[Remllez]

Post 11 about sums it up I believe. Like said above Makarov surplus was steel core but never ruled armor piercing as far as I know. Having said that most indoor ranges don't allow its use. I'm pretty sure ATF would not allow the public to buy and sell AP if it was ruled "illegal" by them.

 

[NG VI]

There's not that much vagueness, either a bullet is jacketed or it isn't, if it isn't, it can't be made out of one of the restricted materials and be legal for import, if it is, and it is larger than .22, it cannot have a jacket greater than 25% of the projectile weight, and the core cannot be entirely composed of one or more of the restricted materials.

There is nothing wrong with having a multiple material core, as long as at least one of the materials is not listed in the restricted materials list.

These are all known terms, there is no confusion about that copper-jacketed, lead and steel cored bullet higher up the page.

M855/SS109 does not have a steel core either, it has a lead core with a small piece of steel in it. The core has two different metal components, the one that could cause import/manufacturer headaches is not the sole component and in the case of SS109 it isn't even a large amount of the core.

It's not vague. The core can be made of two or more different metals, blended or not, but as long as the core is not entirely composed of metals listed on the restricted list, there's no issue with it.

 

[BlindJustice]

FYI - Ammo with Steel core bullets aarre not allowed at the range I go to - it's an indoor range and the steel core bullets mess with the backstop (25 yards).

R-

 

[Jim Watson]

I would be wary of searching for loopholes in the law.

For example, the prosecution's ballistics expert could testify that Dave's bullet in post #5 has an all-steel core and whoever sold it to him is in violation. He would say that the lead is not part of the core, it is a sleeve around the steel core for the purposes of rifling engagement and shape accomodation. There is rifle AP made that way, with lead sleeves to take up the gaps between a jacket shaped for aerodynamics and a core shaped for penetration.

There is a thread on another board in which one loophole searcher says it is all right to buy a 1911 without serial number because the gunsmith who refinished it says it never had one. Riiight.

Remember, the govenment has specialists who deal in the definition of "is."

 

[fguffey]

Rick-O-shay

Rick-O-Shay,

Dave P, I purchased a few boxes of what was perceived as ‘practice ammo’, on stripper clips, the bullet is made up of a steel round ball and a sabot jacket, all in a foreign language. I ask the dealer if he had shot the ammo, he said yes, then the next question, how did it shoot? He said he thought it was for practice, so he shot a round in his shop, he claimed the steel ball hit everything in his shop except him. I have little interest in practicing and if I did I would avoid hitting anything that would not keep the bullet.

F. Guffey

 

[Dave P.]

Little update....
Spoke with the Michigan state police firearms legal "expert".
Michigans law is like the feds. in that it talks about the entire
core of the round but never defines what the core is.
( which was my initial hangup )
She could not locate any court cases in Michigan where
someone was ever charged and had the issue resolved.
As far as the MSP goes, they have no opinion one way or
the other.
So as Jim Watson pointed out it does ( at least in Michigan )
remain a bit vague.
As a practical matter I going to buy plenty and just shoot it
outdoors at my own property and not worry about it.
Thanks for the feedback.
Dave

 

[Jim K]

As in other areas, BATFE has set up some rules as to what constitutes armor piercing ammo, and a steel core alone is not enough. Steel or iron cores are normal in foreign military ammo because of the shortage of lead in many countries or in wartime.

It is also necessary to distinguish between steel core and steel jackets, which latter are also common in military and even some civilian ammo.

The whole business arose over the antis propaganda about "cop killer" bullets that supposedly would penetrate body armor. They lied a lot and faked "tests" to get that section into the law, but actually wanted it even more stringent, with the expressed intent of banning as much ammunition as possible.

Jim