Steel Meets Polymer - What Happens When The Plastic Wears Out ?

[Gun Master]

I've always been an all steel guy. But later, I accepted the lighter weight steel/aircraft aluminum combination. That's still all metal. Right ?

I never liked the Glock. Didn't look like a real gun, ugly, not all metal, and made with a lot of what is actually "plastic" !

Later, I delved into the steel/polymer realm, buying a Kel-Tec P-32 and a SCCY CPX-2. They have mixed reviews, but seem to perform satisfactorily.

Recently, I became aware of police department and military surplus trade-ins, many of which were of the steel/polymer construction. Did the plastic part become chipped, cracked, or otherwise damaged from contact with the steel?
Why were they being traded in ? Were the guns still any good ?

What happens when the plastic wears out ?

 

[4thPointOfContact]

Name the plastic part you're worried about and I'll tell you.

I honestly can't think of any metal on plastic contact with a Glock aside from a few rotating pieces. Certainly nothing with a big friction component.

 

[mstreddy]

As a Glock owner for many years, I'll tell you, the plastic/metal contact is minimal to non-existent. Even the captive recoil spring w/ plastic guide rod doesn't wear all that much. I am still on my original parts on both a 17 and 19 with a pretty good round count -- guesstimate is around 10K each.

You ask why are they police dept trade-ins -- economics -- plain and simple. A dept gets an offer from a vendor to switch over their "old", "unsafe", out-of-style, Glocks, M&Ps, brand X, Brand Y pistols to the NEW Improved (insert vogue brand here) and the vendor will usually "buy-back" all their old guns to help defray the purchase cost. This vendor will then sell them to a big distributor and you get to see all these police trade ins available.

So, generally, these guns will be fine. Maybe some holster wear, maybe some use/handling marks, but otherwise they should be good to go.

Can polymer be damaged? Yes, it can be scratched, chipped, dinged, but that's all normal as in any material.

 

[Dirty Bob]

The Ruger P95 and P97 both had polymer "rails" that the slide rides on. I've had experience with both and have seen no problems whatsoever. I would field strip either and look at the rails if buying used, just in case but I've carried polymer pistols for years in total confidence, including the P95 and '97.

Heck, the Remington Nylon 66 (.22 LR) was an autoloader with the stock and receiver made of one piece of plastic, IIRC, and the bolt rode back and forth in the nylon receiver, with steel on plastic contact. They were made from the very late 1950s until the late 1980s, IIRC, and you can still run across used examples, though some now have collector value. Haven't heard of one being worn out, and they reportedly ran fine with little or no lubrication. Sounds like a great rifle for hunting rabbits in the snow!

BTW, there's a great Nylon 66 article at American Rifleman.

All my best,
Dirty Bob

 

[bannockburn]

Gun Master

Basically the Glock slide rides on steel rails that are embedded into the polymer frame. Other guns, like your SCCY CPX-2 have an aluminum sub-assembly in the polymer grip frame. Very little if any metal part on polymer contact going on inside of these guns.

I have had an early Glock 17 for many years now and there still is no indication of any wear on the metal parts and polymer frame.

 

[newfalguy101]

These days many times police trade pistols because they are on the approved list of items that can be purchased with drug monies.

Typically LEO trades are in very good to near mint mechanical condition.

 

[Gun Master]

Steel/polymer Clarification

This was not meant to be a "Glock Bashing" thread. Heck, I may buy one if the opportunity presents itself. I am referring to the steel on polymer contact wear in handguns in general.

Being as ignorant as I am about this subject, I'm seeking information about it.
I already told you (all) in general, "I'm a Steel Guy".

As a side note, I did own a used Remington Nylon 66 (Seneca Green) at one time. It began to slam fire three round bursts, presumably due to a worn sear.
The Nylon 66 was touted to be so durable and strong, and that it could be thrown out of a three story building, run over a truck and still function flawlessly.

I bought it (the story and the gun). It was supposed to have been operated by many nylon (plastic) ball bearings.

Well, hello ! I wonder why I don't trust steel on plastic ?

Could somebody enlighten me to the long-term effects of steel on polymer in the modern day world, please ?

 

[Gun Master]

Gun Master

Basically the Glock slide rides on steel rails that are embedded into the polymer frame. Other guns, like your SCCY CPX-2 have an aluminum sub-assembly in the polymer grip frame. Very little if any metal part on polymer contact going on inside of these guns.

I have had an early Glock 17 for many years now and there still is no indication of any wear on the metal parts and polymer frame.

Thank you sir, (or m'am), I DO presume you are a man. That is most helpful.

 

[Dirty Bob]

bannockburn got it 100% right: most "polymer" pistols actually have metal rails, often of steel, but sometimes use aluminum (Kel-Tec, SCCY) subassemblies. They all work. I suspect that with minimal care, a typical off-the-shelf Glock 9mm could easily last 100,000 rounds: far, far more than most people will fire in several lifetimes. I believe Chuck Taylor has a Glock 17 with over 200,000 rounds through it.

YMMV, but I trust Glocks. I don't find them pretty, but they work!

Dirty Bob

 

[Dirty Bob]

Could somebody enlighten me to the long-term effects of steel on polymer in the modern day world, please ?

If you want plastic-on-steel contact, the Ruger P95 and P97 are the only ones I know of. People may hate Rugers because they don't have graceful lines, the slides are obviously castings, etc., but I haven't heard of anyone wearing out a P95 or P97. My P95 has been 100% reliable and shows no sign of wear. I'm trying to wear it out, but it may take a while...

Not my P95. This is a public domain pic of an early (later p95s have a rail)
stainless P95 from wikipedia:

Regards,
Dirty Bob

 

[Gun Master]

Thanks for the enlightenment, Bob !

 

[9mmepiphany]

Just to increase your knowledge base, the polymer frames of handguns are likely to out last the metal parts as they are more resistent to fatigue.

All the metal parts of the internal action components ride against other metal parts

 

[Jim K]

Most guns with polymer frames have steel inserts, but in fact, the polymer is more resistant to abrasion than steel. Those guns can be worn out, but it will take at least as many shots as an all steel gun.

As far as I am concerned, not a big concern. If you are one of those folks who fires a couple of thousand rounds a week, you expect to replace your guns pretty often, no matter what they are made from. You also have a heckuva lot more money for ammo than I do!

Jim

 

[jmr40]

I accepted the lighter weight steel/aircraft aluminum combination. That's still all metal. Right ?

If you are interested in longevity you chose the worst option. All steel guns have proven to last a long time. The aluminum alloy guns were designed to save weight, but have a much shorter life expectancy than steel. Although it would be rare for most of us to wear out any of them.

Plastic has proven to be much cheaper than either steel or aluminum, lighter than aluminum, and last at least as long as the steel framed guns.

I wouldn't be concerned about plastic wearing out. There are several documented Glocks with near, or over 300,000 rounds through them. A steel framed gun may last as long, but I'm not aware of anyone testing the theory. An aluminum gun will be worn out long before that.

 

[skeezix]

Ruger P95

I had concerns about the wear of the frame rails of a Ruger P95, so I asked Ruger Customer Service.

I asked these questions:

1) Is there any metal reinforcement at all in the polymer frame?
2) If not, what is the "wear life" of the polymer slide rails?
3) What do the terms "compounded polymer frames" and "reinforced polymer frame" mean?

Here are Ruger CS's answers:

There is no metal insert in the P95 frame. The wear life on the P95, if taken care of, will be around 50,000 rounds or more. The average person will not wear one out. The terms used to describe the frame refer to fiberglass floc and a special mix of polymer used to produce the frames.

 

[USAF_Vet]

IraqVeteran8888 on YouTube recently did a Glock meltdown video. Using a drop in auto sear and a stock (all legal, he's an SOT FFL) he fired mag after mag on full auto until the gun failed. Even after disassembly, the gun was still operational.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ub4OswUhLwo

Check it out. This should be enough to convince anyone that a good, quality, polymer frame gun is going to last.

 

[shooter1]

Not only are polymer frames durable, the police trade ins are one of the best bargains out there!
str1

 

[Zerodefect]

If you don't change a Glock recoil spring assembly when recommended, the frame will crack.

But you can send it to Glock and they'll take care of you. Maybe a fee, but a small one IIRC.

 

[shooter1]

I think Glock recommends changing recoil springs every 5k rounds or so. I change mine when I can tell the spring is going soft. I have run some upwards of 10k. I shoot IDPA and USPSA with a couple dozen others shooting Glocks. There may be some out there, but I've never seen a cracked frame.
str1

 

[Zaydok Allen]

The two plastic guns I own are both common guns, viewed as tools only in my mind, and have little sentimental value to me. That doesn't mean I don't care about them, but my all metal guns and particularly my revolvers receive all of my attention beyond practicality and maintenance.

If I ever manage to use up a polymer framed gun, I'll just replace it. When the handle on your hammer gets dried up and cracked, you usually don't worry about getting a new handle, you just buy a new hammer.

That being said, if there was customization spent on a polymer gun, I'd understand the concern. But as 9mmepiphany pointed out, with modern polymers in use, the metal parts are more likely to wear out faster. So shoot on man...... Shoot on

 

[45_auto]

If you don't change a Glock recoil spring assembly when recommended, the frame will crack.

Kind of like saying that if you don't follow the specific manufacturer's oil change recommendations your car engine will blow up. Not going to happen. Funniest example I know of was a VERY mechanically challenged friend's mid-1980's Jeep Comanche pick up. We were on our way to a match in the late 1980's when the oil light came on. Took 5 quarts to get it back up on the dipstick. It had a little over 60,000 miles on it (he bought it new), original oil, he didn't know you were supposed to change the oil. He traded it in about 5 years later, over 150,000 miles on it still running fine, for a Honda Del Sol. Hopefully he changed the oil a few times in that span, but knowing Matt, it's possible he didn't!

The vast majority of the people I shoot with have no idea that you're supposed to replace recoil springs, so they typically change the recoil springs on their Glocks at the same time they change the valve springs on their cars. In other words, never.

Not a single cracked frame (or broken valve) yet after almost 30 years.

Highest count Glock recoil spring that I can personally verify the round count through is a 2nd gen G23 police trade-in purchased in the mid-90's. I use it as a loaner gun in classes. Almost 40,000 rounds on the recoil spring since I got it, no idea how many were on it before that. Runs like new, frame wasn't cracked as of about 2 weeks ago.

 

[X-Rap]

I once saw a post war HP that had the front of the frame seriously peened from a worn out spring. The gun otherwise looked to have been fired or at least carried very little.
I concur with the view of the polymers holding up very well.

 

[Drail]

deleted

 

[AK103K]

I have a Glock 17 that just recently past 89,000 rounds. The trigger spring broke just prior to rolling over that mark, and it was the first thing to go. It was actually still working too, even with the broken spring, if you held the reset while charging.

The "rails" are now smooth and polished, and the edges are sharp enough that you can cut yourself on a couple of them, if youre not careful while cleaning. The barrel shows the most wear, with a "smiley" that can be felt when you run your fingers over it.

I change the RSA twice a year (I shoot +/- 15-20000 rounds a year out of it). At $7.50 a pop, its cheap insurance.

Frame shows very little signs of wear from being shot.

 

[Gun Master]

Glock-Ability

I am gaining more and more respect for the Glock .

Keep talking, please.