plastic strength vs. steel

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REAPER4206969 said:
Most polymer framed pistols have highly advanced finishes on the steel parts.
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yo, I got some pretty "special" finishes on me, too
and I don't look or work all that great anymore
(and I ain't even been buried for 20 years yet)

is it the steel parts , or the plastic parts ???

(sorry, just couldn't resist that, but I am going to shut up now.. missed two straight weeks range day, weather, but going to go shoot something tomorrow, even if I have to to wear a steel overcoat and plastic underwear)
 
Quote: oldfool
"Steel flexes
if you don't believe that, don't ever get in a jumbo jet, don't ever even get in a Piper Cub, leastways don't ever look out the window at the wing whilst in flight"
------------------------

Steel does flex, but I want to see a steel 747 fly. :D (joking)
 
I'm not an old shooter, but I'm not a young one either. Just middle aged.:)

I love (and own) steel guns and alloy framed guns, too. There are metal framed pocket .380s out there as well, such as the NAA Guardian and the Micro Desert Eagle. I've got the NAA Guardian in .32 ACP. It is a dense little gun and the stainless is easy to care for.

However, I do own two poly pistols. The definitely have their place. Some blued steel guns with nice wood grips are just too pretty to treat like the tool that a CCW pistol would be used for. Many poly pistols with a tough finish on the steel like Glock's Tennifer are great guns that won't make you cry too bad if they get some cosmetic damage. It's a tool, much like a shovel or a sledge hammer. Just wipe it off and lube it, it keeps on tickin'.

As far as felt recoil, that will depend on the shooter, the grip shape, the weight, bore axis, caliber, action type, etc.

I have recently fired side by side my Glock 36 (.45 ACP single stack) vs. my friend's two Kimber UCIIs. They are 1911 Officers sized .45 ACP pistols with aluminum frames. One weighs only about 2.5 ounces more than the Glock 36 with empty magazines in place. The Kimber has more felt recoil, to me.

Shoot, my Taurus 85UL alloy framed snubby (with hard grip) firing .38 +P has more felt recoil than the Glock 36.

Anyway, I like steel, aluminum, or poly. I don't like all the poly guns and I don't like all the metal guns. Some just don't suit me. It just depends on the gun.

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Following comparison probably flawed...

I have some plastic buckets in my garage that are a few years old and are cracked and "brittle." I have a couple of metal garbage cans that are dinged up but still solid. I just can't help but wonder about the long term aging of plastic / polymers. Will they eventually become brittle? I recently purchased a Colt 1903 Pocket Hammerless built in 1918, and if that frame were plastic instead of steel I wonder how durable it would be after 92 years. I am sure polymer framed guns will last longer than me, but I want my kids and my grandkids to also enjoy my firearms. Will polymer frames last that long? I really don't know. I would love to believe they have that kind of longevity, because of the many advantages listed by others.
 
Different polymers (plastics, if you must) have different properties (UTS, Flexural strength, temperature, chemical, and impact (Izod) resistance and some are (very much) better than others for use in firearms components.

The polymer (typically ABS or polypropylene) used in your typical 5 gallon bucket is not the same polymer (typically a Polyamide, also called Nylon) that is used in polymer handgun frames/components. Entirely different animals.
 
Polymer frames are great until...

Polymer pistols are more durable than steel until you get a KB.

I agree with what has been posted for the most part. While polymer does have some benefits, it is not unusual to see a polymer framed pistol KB (blow up). I'm not saying that a steel gun can't blow up, but I'd imagine that a steel framed gun would be a lot safer during a KB malfunction than a Glock or any of the other polymer pistols on the market.
 
I remember when a LEO friend of mine got his Glock and told me I just HAD to check this out. Well he handed it to me and it just did not feel right. In fact none of the Glocks feel right to me. I think its the grip angle. I'm sure they are durable and all that other good stuff and I even kinda like the tiny Glock I saw last year. Looked like a good backup piece.

I have not picked up a part polymer firearm more than 6 or 7 times since then. I have a hard time in my mind spending 3, 4 or even $500 for a polymer pistol.

There is exceptions!

I would shell out the cash for one that was 100% polymer or had every steel piece covered in plastic. Meaning it would have to have to be 100% corrosion proof even the barrel.

Second exception is a solid state phaser made out of plastic would be ok too.

I'm getting old and forgot what the original question was.

Not to cause thread drift but is there a law or reg that says a pistol must have some metal in it?
 
I cant say One is better than the other...Im not an engineer...what I do KNOW for a fact is...I dont like the Idea of a plastic weapon and have never owned one for that reason, I dont beleive they are faulty as I have shot them enough and know knowledgable people that swear by them, I just cant wrap my mind around the Idea that plastic is better all the way around..
 
Fishman777 said:
Polymer pistols are more durable than steel until you get a KB.

I agree with what has been posted for the most part. While polymer does have some benefits, it is not unusual to see a polymer framed pistol KB (blow up). I'm not saying that a steel gun can't blow up, but I'd imagine that a steel framed gun would be a lot safer during a KB malfunction than a Glock or any of the other polymer pistols on the market.
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"Uhh" steel pistols Kaboom just as frequently as do polymer ones, which is to say, not very bloody often, certainly not often enough to qualify as "USUAL!"
 
oldfool said:
If we were to bury in the ground unprotected, a Glock, or a S&W M&P frame, along side a garden variety carbon steel pistol frame, leaving them there for 100yrs, 200yrs, 300yrs and so on, the advanced polymers in the Glock & M&P are going to survive virtually unscathed.

good points, but..
do that to any wheelie left on the back patio 20 years too long (unburied, unless the dawgs get really bored), don't count on a whole lot of smiles when the great-grandchildren come to visit, be it STEEL or PLASTIC

and if/when somebody digs it up out of the unprotected ground after 20 years or 100 years from now, if there ain't NO steel in in, just how hard will they have to throw it at the bad guy to make 'em stop and go elsewhere ?

a rusty rock is at least still a rock
and plastic is still plastic, no matter how corrosion proof, it don't make a real good rock
no STEEL left in a plastic FRAME don't make a for a whole lot of boom-n-bang
neither does a rusted out SS N-frame, but it might still make for a pretty good dent-in-head if thrown with enough conviction ???

PS
did somebody started making ZERO steel in plastic/polymer FRAME guns that shoot real ammunition whilst I was taking my nap ?
if they did... I WANT one !
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The polymer frame is the component part being compared, further, steel does not flex, or at least not enough to rate when competed against polymer, the amount being so minimal before damage occurs that for all intents and purposes it's totally non-competetive with polymer!
One other item, if I were to subject steel to the abuse of open earth burial, I sure wouldn't choose to do so with my SS Combat Commander, or my 686-plus or anything else for that matter that had not been treated to the nitrocarbing acid bath process, something that cannot even be done(successfully)to SS!
If you're intent was to bury, or in some other creative way abuse such a steel, there is really only one type that would have any chance at surviving such mistreatment, that would be a Glock slide, or one identically finished...
 
This is a great conversation...20 years ago. Get over it people. Poly framed handguns are very tough or we'd be seeing Glocks with cracked frames everywhere. It's lighter and far easier to shape..plus cheaper. If you don't like the feel (like my wife) that's fine..but questioning strength or durability? Really?
 
NetJunkie: said:
This is a great conversation...20 years ago. Get over it people. Poly framed handguns are very tough or we'd be seeing Glocks with cracked frames everywhere. It's lighter and far easier to shape..plus cheaper. If you don't like the feel (like my wife) that's fine..but questioning strength or durability? Really?
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Junkie,

Totally agree.

Like it or not (I like it very much), polymer framed pistols are here to stay. They offer more advantages than not and are every bit as durable, strong (oftentimes much more so) and functional as metal framed guns.

This debate is every bit as anachronistic as you say it is and well past its time. :)
 
Steel, alloy or polymer -- each has its advantages. My favorite 9mm is a stainless S&W 5906. It's a heavy gun, and S&W can probably no longer afford to make such guns, but the weak part of autos aren't their frame material, but in their multitudes of springs -- recoil springs, mainsprings, extractor springs, magazine springs, and so forth. Revolvers can go for tens of thousands of rounds and last for years. Auto springs need judicious replacements to stay fit. If buying a used auto, one usually has no idea what condition the springs are in. (I make it a point to buy new springs for every used auto I buy...but with revolvers, no worry.)

Steel may be structurally stronger than polymer, but strength isn't everything. How it reacts to exeme heat, cold and moisture, and whether it can continue to function after exposure to sand, dirt and debris, also are important, and it's here that most 1911s drop out of the game.

So far, polymer guns seem to do quite well. Newer design autos also tend to be more reliable out of the box than older-designed, and more expensive, autos.
 
It seems to me that polymer is probably used because it is lighter, easier and less expensive to manufacture, and is reinforced by steel (inserts) where necessary. It also doesn't rust due to moisture or sweat.

I don't know about the comparisons to toys, etc. that are being used here. But I know that car manufacturers have been using polymer for 30 years, probably because it is less expensive, easier to make, and doesn't rust. And rust is a big issue, especially in areas (like wheel wells) exposed to moisture and/or salt during the winter.

I'm no engineer or controller, though. Just my guess about why polymer is used instead of steel.
 
I use all steel 1911's and love them. I can use polymer framed pistol but i choose steel. I guess the question is not strength because steel is more strong, less brittle than plastic. But a weapon realibility is not based on materials alone.
 
StarDust1 said:
Whens the last time you fired a bullet through a spring?
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ever see slow motion video of an ak-47 barrel going full auto? flexes all over the place... if you research sword making you get a clear picture of steel flexing. too brittle, sword breaks. too springy it bends.

for the record, to the old guys i'm almost there, HK made the first poly pistols i think 10 years before glock hit the market.
 
One other item, if I were to subject steel to the abuse of open earth burial, I sure wouldn't choose to do so with my SS Combat Commander, or my 686-plus or anything else for that matter that had not been treated to the nitrocarbing acid bath process, something that cannot even be done(successfully)to SS!
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This is patently false. Nitrocarburizing carbon steel to be like a Glock slide is a three step process. First an initial quench in the molten bath, then a polish, and then a final quench. Part of the double quenching is to bring up the Rockwell hardness number of the carbon ordnance steel into the 70s, in part to make the slide more scratch resistant due to being harder than many of the things that might scrape off of it.

Stainless steel has chromium in it. A SS frame or slide starts out harder on the RC scale than does a carbon steel counterpart due to the presence of the chromium. Stainless steel could be QPQ'ed, but then it would be too brittle for its application as a pistol slide.

Stainless steel, already having a built in corrosion resistance and higher initial hardness that carbon steel lacks, can be nitrocarburized, but it only requires a polishing of the stainless steel part and then one quenching in the molten bath to arrive at the same RC hardness and corrosion resistance as a QPQ treated carbon steel slide. In both cases, the nitrocarburizing is going to alter the molecular surface of the part, to a few thousandths of an inch, imparting the "magical" qualities associated with this treatment. The stainless steel part is just skipping a step made unnecessary by the nature of the beginning steel.

A "PQ" stainless slide is going to be every bit the equivalent of a "QPQ" carbon steel slide.
 
Fremmer said:
It seems to me that polymer is probably used because it is lighter, easier and less expensive to manufacture, and is reinforced by steel (inserts) where necessary. It also doesn't rust due to moisture or sweat.

I don't know about the comparisons to toys, etc. that are being used here. But I know that car manufacturers have been using polymer for 30 years, probably because it is less expensive, easier to make, and doesn't rust. And rust is a big issue, especially in areas (like wheel wells) exposed to moisture and/or salt during the winter.

I'm no engineer or controller, though. Just my guess about why polymer is used instead of steel.
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no doubt. thats why you see cops all over the world with plastic pistols. glocks are most notable because they're generally the cheapest quality pistol offered.
 
I dont think I get the question.

There is no room for debate or axe heads or tricycles here.

Either plastic is as strong as steel or its not.

I want to know, if you take a pistol frame, and make it out of plastic, vs a pistol frame made out of steel what is "Stronger" whatever that means.

I thought we knew the answer to this question?


You know, Ar-15 lowers come in Aluminum and polymer...........
 
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