Stolle panda 223

[dfish1247]

Have a stolle panda coming that is currently 222 Remington. Ive got a bartlein 22 barrel blank 1:8 twist on hand and want to change to 223.

Using the smk 77gr, I came up with a oal of 2.48”. I also want a no turn neck deal as well, I despise turning necks with a passion.

My question is the chamber, I’d like to be able to load in the 5.56 category if needed. Does that mean I need a 5.56 chamber? If so, is a 5.56 chamber a less accurate chamber than a 223 or is the wylde chamber the way to go?

I’m just after something to hit .25” group at 100yds and don’t want another 6 ppc or 6 br. Just something simple and easy to find brass for.

In case this pops up, the rifle as a whole cost less than what the fiberglass stock on it would, hence the plain cartridge package.

I have all the stuff for loading and know the smk will group tightly, my woa upper ar will hit in the .380” area constantly.

 

[12Bravo20]

You normally do not want to shoot 5.56 ammo in a true 223 chamber since most 5.56 ammo is loaded hotter.

I know some will come along and say that I am totally wrong here, but look it up for yourself. Yes dimensionally the two calibers are exactly the same as far as ammo is concerned. but again true 5.56 NATO spec ammo is loaded to higher pressures.

Now most manufacturers that still sell rifles with a 223 chamber will actually cut their chambers closer to a 223 Wylde or 5.56 chamber knowing that people will end up shooting surplus 5.56 ammo through the rifles. A good bolt action with a true 223 chamber can normally handle the occasional 5.56 round being fired without issues. But I would not do that all of the time.

Where one really sees an issue with shooting 5.56 ammo in a 223 chamber is with break open single shot rifles.

To answer your question, a 5.56 chamber can shoot accurately but a 223 Wylde will do better. A true 223 chamber will normally be the most accurate. But if there is a chance that you will shoot 5.56 NATO rounds then I would go with a 223 Wylde or 5.56 chamber.

 

[Walkalong]

Have a stolle panda coming that is currently 222 Remington

Sweet! Whatever you do with it.

 

[adcoch1]

Any issue with leaving it in 222? I would figure out what bullet you want to shoot and get a reamer throat cut for that bullet profile. Then you can cut the barrel to the actual ammo you're shooting and eliminate the guesswork.

 

[dfish1247]

I figured the wylde chamber would be the way to go. I’ve tried 223 loads with 69-77gr, doesn’t group well at all out of the ar. Not into pattern territory, but .8-1.5” is the best they’ll do. The 5.56 loads tighten them up greatly. Bolt rifle may be different, especially with a chamber fit to the dummy rounds I have made up.

I just want to use what I have already for the ar. Which is 68-77gr bullets and associated powder. 222 is something I’m not interested in anymore.I have nothing to reload 222 and don’t want to buy it either. My goal is find the tightest group, then go to having fun blasting the caps off of soda bottles at 100-200yds and never bother with paper again.

 

[MarshallDodge]

24" Krieger with a 1:7 twist, standard 223 chamber by Preece Precision, with a 77 SMK, 5 shots



With a little tuning I think it would do .25" groups.

 

[horsemen61]

Have a stolle panda coming that is currently 222 Remington. Ive got a bartlein 22 barrel blank 1:8 twist on hand and want to change to 223.

Using the smk 77gr, I came up with a oal of 2.48”. I also want a no turn neck deal as well, I despise turning necks with a passion.

My question is the chamber, I’d like to be able to load in the 5.56 category if needed. Does that mean I need a 5.56 chamber? If so, is a 5.56 chamber a less accurate chamber than a 223 or is the wylde chamber the way to go?

I’m just after something to hit .25” group at 100yds and don’t want another 6 ppc or 6 br. Just something simple and easy to find brass for.

In case this pops up, the rifle as a whole cost less than what the fiberglass stock on it would, hence the plain cartridge package.

I have all the stuff for loading and know the smk will group tightly, my woa upper ar will hit in the .380” area constantly.

Imho the triple Duce is more accurate than a .223 and furthermore how many .25” groups have you shot, I’ve yet to see a rifle short of a rail gun do that consistently and if you are wanting to run 5.56 in it you are getting further and further away from Uber accuracy as always ymmv How Many Benchrest records were set with a .222 compared to 5.56? But if I had that setup coming for cheap I’d pony up the bucks and get 100-200 pieces of brass and get to work on my fundamentals because that’s what will get you accuracy

 

[MarshallDodge]

Imho the triple Duce is more accurate than a .223 and furthermore how many .25” groups have you shot, I’ve yet to see a rifle short of a rail gun do that consistently and if you are wanting to run 5.56 in it you are getting further and further away from Uber accuracy as always ymmv How Many Benchrest records were set with a .222 compared to 5.56? But if I had that setup coming for cheap I’d pony up the bucks and get 100-200 pieces of brass and get to work on my fundamentals because that’s what will get you accuracy

The 223 can be very accurate, it just may not be as easy to tune, and may not stay in tune like a 222 would.

I don't feel like .25" groups is a difficult thing to achieve with a 223. The shooter and the environment will be more of an issue than the caliber.

I do think a 50-53 grain match bullet in a slower twist than 1:8 will lend itself to better accuracy than a 77 in a 1:8 twist. The 222 barrels were typical 1:14 twist.

 

[horsemen61]

The 223 can be very accurate, it just may not be as easy to tune, and may not stay in tune like a 222 would.

I don't feel like .25" groups is a difficult thing to achieve with a 223. The shooter and the environment will be more of an issue than the caliber.

I do think a 50-53 grain match bullet in a slower twist than 1:8 will lend itself to better accuracy than a 77 in a 1:8 twist. The 222 barrels were typical 1:14 twist.

There is a reason why Benchrest records were set with a .222 until the 6PPC it was the cartridge to have in BENCHREST the Most accuracy driven shooting discipline known to man…………

If shooting 1/4 inch groups at 100 yards were that easy for a .223 Don’t you think the benchrest guys would’ve used it? Also if you are wanting Accuracy Above All Else I wouldn’t try to get the gun to Chamber and Fire 5.56 NATO it won’t be a match chamber at that point and I think that is needed to shoot the itty bitty groups the OP is after

 

[horsemen61]

@South Prairie Jim @Varminterror @taliv @Walkalong @Nature Boy id love to hear y’all’s opinions on this matter am I off base here? If so where did I go wrong and to close out would you get the OP’s setup in .222 or .223?

 

[JFrank]

No experience with the 222 or 223 but I know how to google the two cartridges..
and good luck finding an appropriate die set for a 223 Wylde btw.

An Official Journal Of The NRA | Head to Head: .222 Remington vs. .223 Remington

Between the .222 and .223 Remington cartridges, which is the better choice for the hunter? Contributor Philip Massaro examines the pros and cons of each.

www.americanhunter.org

 

[horsey300]

No experience with the 222 or 223 but I know how to google the two cartridges..
and good luck finding an appropriate die set for a 223 Wylde btw.

An Official Journal Of The NRA | Head to Head: .222 Remington vs. .223 Remington

Between the .222 and .223 Remington cartridges, which is the better choice for the hunter? Contributor Philip Massaro examines the pros and cons of each.

www.americanhunter.org

That die set is just a .223 and you don't FL size every time once the brass is fireformed.

 

[Walkalong]

@South Prairie Jim @Varminterror @taliv @Walkalong @Nature Boy id love to hear y’all’s opinions on this matter am I off base here? If so where did I go wrong and to close out would you get the OP’s setup in .222 or .223?

Yes, for pure accuracy the 222 would be the way to go, but that isn't his goal. Going with the .223 decreases the price point and increases the ease of purchase for brass. The tin cans will never know the difference. I would even go with lighter cheaper bullets for punching tin cans, which is what I do now, buy "good to very good" (SP, HP, tipped) 50 to 55 Gr .22 caliber bullets on sale.

My goal is find the tightest group, then go to having fun blasting the caps off of soda bottles at 100-200yds and never bother with paper again.

 

[entropy]

You normally do not want to shoot 5.56 ammo in a true 223 chamber since most 5.56 ammo is loaded hotter.

I know some will come along and say that I am totally wrong here, but look it up for yourself. Yes dimensionally the to calibers are exactly the same but again true 5.56 NATO spec ammo is loaded to higher pressures.

Now most manufacturers that still sell rifles with a 223 chamber will actually cut their chambers closer to a 223 Wylde or 5.56 chamber knowing that people will end up shooting surplus 5.56 ammo through the rifles. A good bolt action with a true 223 chamber can normally handle the occasional 5.56 round being fired without issues. But I would not do that all of the time.

Where one really sees an issue with shooting 5.56 ammo in a 223 chamber is with break open single shot rifles.

To answer your question, a 5.56 chamber can shoot accurately but a 223 Wylde will do better. A true 223 chamber will normally be the most accurate. But if there is a chance that you will shoot 5.56 NATO rounds then I would go with a 223 Wylde or 5.56 chamber.

Actually, dimensionally, they are not the same:

 

[Walkalong]

The tin cans

Heh, showing my age.

 

[JFrank]

That die set is just a .223 and you don't FL size every time once the brass is fireformed.

Yes I suppose you can neck size for awhile but the wyle has a different diameter shoulder and sooner or later NS will bite you in the ass.

 

[12Bravo20]

Actually, dimensionally, they are not the same:

I corrected my post to clarify that the dimensions are the same for the ammo.

And for further clarifications. One can not go by case weight or case capacity when comparing 223 and 5.56 cases. Some 223 cases will be thicker/heavier than 5.56 cases. And some 223 cases will have more case capacity than 5.56 cases and visa versa.

What makes the difference between 223 and 5.56 is how they are loaded. 5.56 is loaded to higher pressures than 223 is.

And we all know the differences between the different chambers.

When it comes to reloading, the same dies are used for reloading both 223 and 5.56. There's different load data for 223 and 5.56 available to reloader.

 

[taliv]

we’re talking about a stolle not an ar15 with mass mfg barrels. Forget about 223 556 and Wylde. You’re looking for a custom benchrest chamber that fits 556 brass.


Step one is find a benchrest gunsmith to chamber your barrel. He’s going to have a bunch of reamers. He may have a handful of different reamers that make different chambers that fit 556 brass and can explain the differences in the various throats and necks. He may have a favorite that he thinks works better than the others.

If you already knew what you wanted you could order your own custom Reamer and send it to the smith to use. But since you don’t, just use one of his.

If you intend to burn a lot of barrels out, make sure the Reamer he has isn’t almost worn out. 223/556 lends itself to high volume reloading and it’s easy and relatively cheap to shoot all day so burning out barrels is a consideration. If you start with 1000 pc of lapua brass and own an annealer you’ll prob go through 5 or 6 barrels before your brass is worn out.

Otoh by the time you’ve worn out a few barrels, you’ll know what you like and don’t like about it and may want to tweak things and need a new Reamer. Hard to say.

But one thing is sure. If you think that action is slick now, wait til you’ve got 10k+ rnds through it.

 

[dfish1247]

Taliv, that’s what I thought was going to happen, a custom chamber for my dummy round I send with it. I have three dummy rounds made up just for that. I do have a bushing neck die as well, hopefully one of my bushings will work, if not, I’ll order the right one.

Usually for me,I’ll fl resize every three or four firings. Being honest, my end goal accuracy probably won’t notice the difference either. And that’s why I picked the end goal of decapping soda bottles, no real need in being stuck with one bullet/powder, I could fl size every time if I wanted and not worry, long story short, I could reload nearly whatever and be happy. The .25” group that caused a commotion is something easily achievable in this type of setup, my previous benchrest foray in the early 2000’s proved that with 6ppc, over .125” would induce a headache for me. The group is just to prove it’ll do it, the bottle cap is just my preferred target, they’re fun to watch fly in the air.


Im very familiar with that action and the nesika J, flick the bolt up with pinky, tilt backwards and bolt falls out, or breathe hard and bolt will move. Luckily, the Kelbly rings came with it as well. That was always a big deal with stolles.

 

[Nature Boy]

@South Prairie Jim @Varminterror @taliv @Walkalong @Nature Boy id love to hear y’all’s opinions on this matter am I off base here? If so where did I go wrong and to close out would you get the OP’s setup in .222 or .223?

I would have preferred the .223 with an ISSF chamber to shoot the 90gn bullets but it would need to be a 1:7 twist.

As is, I’d probably go with a Wylde chamber and shoot 69gn to 77gn bullets. If the main objective is 100 yard accuracy then consistently holding 0.25 MOA 5 shot groups should be pretty easy with that set up.

I love the Kelbly Panda BTW. I have a left port, right bolt, right eject in 6BRA. The OP will enjoy his.

 

[Walkalong]

He’s only shooting 100/200 yards, so, as I posted, I’d go with lighter/cheaper bullets. But he posted that he wants to shoot 68 to 77 Gr bullets because he already has those, so……

 

[dfish1247]

Yup, use what I have. I thought about the 90’s, but since I’m just going to plink, why bother? Same with the 40-55gr.

And my end goal of minute of bottle cap, I’d guarantee the lighter bullets would do that no issue at all.

I already have plenty of the 69-77gr stuff in multiple manufacturers for the ar. I don’t go through much during the course of a year either. I’m lucky if I put 30 rounds down range per gun taken before I’m done. Even the ar or a 10/22. Just one of those “get out of the house for an hour or so” deals. Always been that way.


Oh, some of those competition bullets are ridiculous expensive, I went through that with a 40x 222 mag, 52gr Zia fb with win748 was all that would shoot worth a flip, those were about $.35 a piece 20 years ago. Anything else in any weight with any powder would not do better than .75”, the Zia would nab .119-.130 groups depending on humidity and temperature. Temps in the 60-75 range, lights out. That was a picky rifle. I loved it but glad it’s gone.

 

[Varminterror]

Man… a Panda to plink bottle caps… I REALLY hope they’ll be out at 300yrds…

I’d personally get it in a 223, exactly as @taliv described - find a proper smith, talk about the freebore you want, and build it right.

 

[Walkalong]

It's gonna be a sweet rifle.

 

[dfish1247]

Finally took it out yesterday. Gun has a 24x leupold scope. The barrel wound up a 1:12 twist, no need for faster. Took six shots to center on paper, used the win 748 load for this. Made four loads with 52gr berger hpfb, new starline cases, fed205s, h322, h335, win 748, imr 3031. Hits soda caps at 100yds every time. Next time is 200yds and call it good. 200 is a long walk and no way to drive there.