Stopping police harrassment with open carry

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Don't Get In A Pissing Contest

NEVER START A PISSING CONTEST W/ A COP YOU WILL LOSE 10 OUT OF 10 TIMES.

My first take on this is that a CHP would have avoide the entire incident. I personally can't think of one good reason to OC in a built up area. IMO it draws too much attention and causes far more problems than it solves.

That said, I make it a rule not to say one more word that I have to to a cop and I NEVER argue a fine point of law W/ one.

As has been stated :

"Officer am I free to go?"

"Officer I am not comfortable having this disscussion W/ out my attorney present. Am I free to go?

"Officer please tell me what I am LEGALLY REQUIRED to do to be on my way. Am I free to go."

After that SHUT UP get the officers business card & write that letter.

If you start an argument on the street ( read challenge his authority) W/ an officer you will lose every time.

Last note NEVER THREATEN TO CONTACT HIS SUPERIOR OR FILE A COMPLAINT, You will only antagonize him.

"Officer
 
You're under no obligation to play 50 questions with them, just provide ID and tell them you don't want to talk to them.
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And in many places (Ohio for instance), you are not required to have ID (other than things like a driver's license while driving). Tell him you don't carry ID and merely identify yourself by name (if required by law). Then it's back to "Am I free to leave?"

And if he wants to get ignorant, insist that he produce a field supervisor. If that doesn't work, dial 911 at your first opportunity and report the incident in as much detail as possible, using names and badge numbers. You want as long and wide of a paper trail as possibile. The wonderful benefit of this is that it puts him and others contemplating misbehavior on the horns of a dilemma. Responding personnel have to decide if they're going to do their duty or give him the wink and the nod. If they go with the former, you've got hard to impeach proof of wrongdoing on his part. If they go with the latter, then that's a BIG sword that Internal Affairs, the prosecutor and your attorney have hanging over their heads. The odds are, they'll roll on Officer Friendly to try to prevent or mitigate damage to themselves. The Jefferson Tap case in Chicago is a prime example of "professional courtesy" in the face of felonious behavior resulting in the kneecapping of [non-]responding officers' careers. When in doubt, create witnesses, LOTS of witnesses, with a LOT to lose.
 
Please don't think of cops in LA are equal to cops in the rest of the country. That place is a like a third world country, and their police reflect it.
 
The best way to stop this type of action, is a lawsuit. Plain and simple. As I posted once on another OC forum, no LEO has the authority to stop, detain, or question any citizen for exercizing a right, absent any illegal activity.

Instead of bitching about it on the forums, why not just get some cash together, hire a lawyer, and file a civil rights lawsuit?????

...and yes, that's advice from a LEO that knows what rights are.
 
Oh, and then he finished off with "Well, if you want to get technical, that weapon is concealed." "Um, sir, it is perfectly visible." "No, it is in a holster, which means that part of the gun is not visible so we COULD arrest you for that"
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We have a precedent in the State of Florida regarding that very matter. It was ruled in Ensor v. State of Florida:

S
ection 790.001(2) defines a concealed firearm as “any firearm . . .
which is carried on or about a person in such a manner as to conceal the
firearm from the ordinary sight of another person.” In Ensor v. State,
403 So. 2d 349, 354 (Fla. 1981), the supreme court established a two-
pronged test under this statute, explaining:

For a firearm to be concealed, it must be (1) on or about the
person and (2) hidden from the ordinary sight of another
person. The term “on or about the person” means physically
on the person or readily accessible to him. This generally
includes the interior of an automobile and the vehicle’s glove
compartment, whether or not locked. The term “ordinary
sight of another person” means the casual and ordinary
observation of another in the normal associations of life.
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Quoted text is from myfloridalegal.com

And this, from Article IV of the United States Constitution:

Full Faith and Credit shall be given in each State to the public Acts, Records, and judicial Proceedings of every other State.
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Hmmm... I'm no Constitutional lawyer, but this osunds fairly straight forward to me.

In some ways I'm glad we don't have open carry in Florida because I would exercise it every day. I have trouble conversing in a calm manner with idiots who suffer from some kind of Napoleon complex and who can't respect my natural rights.

Good for you for exercising your right to open carry. If more people in your state would go that route rather than concealment, perhaps people would begin to wake up. Nice job on keeping your cool with that power tripping officer, too. It really doesn't help to get into an argument on the spot.
 
gonna be hard for me to maintain 90% invisibility :p Not exactly made of glass, and I am not aware of any cloaking devices as of yet. :p
 
this particular idiot cop is going off of the MISSISSIPPI case over a concealed weapon. The MS supreme court ruled that ANY part of the weapon concealed makes it a concealed weapon. This can be taken to mean that even if the handgun was carried with a string tied around the trigger guard, that small part of concealment makes it a concealed weapon.
 
Then goes into another speel about all the what ifs if they where called to a scene and I was there and my gun was visible how I could be shot etc etc etc.
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Oh, and then he finished off with "Well, if you want to get technical, that weapon is concealed." "Um, sir, it is perfectly visible." "No, it is in a holster, which means that part of the gun is not visible so we COULD arrest you for that"
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And if you didn't have it in the holster, carrying it your hand you WOULD have been shot!

What kind of circular logic is that?
 
Well, I now have case law from the La Sup. Ct. showing that a weapon in a holster is not concealed so long as it is still visible enough that it is evidently a handgun and I am not making an attempt to hide its identity from gov't officials
 
Sadly there are far too many leo's who are itching for gun play. One of the reasons I will never get a ccw is that innocent until proven guilty means nothing to cops.
 
Sadly there are far too many leo's who are itching for gun play. One of the reasons I will never get a ccw is that innocent until proven guilty means nothing to cops.
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That also means that you've decided to trust that no violent criminal will harm you. That seems like a sucker bet to me.
 
What it really sounds like is that you became aggressive, when first contacted. :rolleyes:

You facial expression, your overall demeanor, your physical stance, etc. are what set the officer off, or at least gave him caution. When you continued in the vein you have posted, he decided that you were going to wish you hadn't started that way. They are allowed to do that.

When you are 1) calm 2) relaxed, and 3) polite, you will have significantly less problem with LEOs. Was this officer out of line? Easily could be. HOWEVER, if you are calm, relaxed, etc. it becomes very evident where the problem is and the officer will hasten to complete the contact. The more you fight it or show that you are upset, the longer it will take.

Many, many of our states have open carry laws. Unfortunately for all gun owners, many that choose to open carry take the attitude of "It's my right!" Think about that. Do you really want to go into a legal discussion with someone that is sworn to uphold the law, when you started by pissing him off? Especially when you know he can detain you for as long as he wants (less than one full day, without charging you).

If, as you entered the store, you had gone by the officers, smiled and said "Good day officer." to one of them, chances are you would have had NO further contact.

Look in the mirror for the problem, and complain to the person you see there.
 
Pat-inCO:

With your post you demonstrated the powers of clairvoyance, clairaudience, and ESP. A regular trifecta of psychic powers.

Bravo, Sir! :rolleyes:
 
No one is suggesting that we be rude to LEO's.

They need to follow the laws just as we do, and ignorance on EITHER party's part of the laws are no excuse for unlawful action.
 
What it really sounds like is that you became aggressive, when first contacted.

You facial expression, your overall demeanor, your physical stance, etc. are what set the officer off, or at least gave him caution. When you continued in the vein you have posted, he decided that you were going to wish you hadn't started that way. They are allowed to do that.

When you are 1) calm 2) relaxed, and 3) polite, you will have significantly less problem with LEOs. Was this officer out of line? Easily could be. HOWEVER, if you are calm, relaxed, etc. it becomes very evident where the problem is and the officer will hasten to complete the contact. The more you fight it or show that you are upset, the longer it will take.

Many, many of our states have open carry laws. Unfortunately for all gun owners, many that choose to open carry take the attitude of "It's my right!" Think about that. Do you really want to go into a legal discussion with someone that is sworn to uphold the law, when you started by pissing him off? Especially when you know he can detain you for as long as he wants (less than one full day, without charging you).

If, as you entered the store, you had gone by the officers, smiled and said "Good day officer." to one of them, chances are you would have had NO further contact.

Look in the mirror for the problem, and complain to the person you see there.
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What a complete, and total load! If the law says OC is legal,ALL cops should know it, and abide by it.Therefore, if I have done nothing but open carry, as is legal within the law, there's NO reason for LEO contact in the first place.Also, If the law says OC is perfectly legal, and the 2nd Amendment hasnt been repealed, then IT IS MY RIGHT!.Thats not rude, that's not an "attitude", thats just a fact.Doing something thats protected in the Bill of Rights, and expressly legal by law, is NOT having an "attitude".And, last I checked, no law exists anywhere in the country making it illegal to "piss off a cop", whether true or not in reality, or regardless of the cops opinin on what's "rude" or "pisses him off".If someone sworn to enforce the law is incapable of knowing the law (which ALL of us in this county, every last one of us, presidents, cops, and "civilians" included) are required to do, (as the SC has ruled ignorance of the law is NOT a defense), or s incapable of accepting the law, regardless of his personal feelings on the lw, he/she needs to get a new job, either voluntarily or by being fired.End of stoy.
Oh, and as was pointed out, where do you get the idea the OP was "rude"? ecause he didn greet the cops in passing? Is it a law/requirement now, in order to not be hassled? This isnt the military, and the OP wasn't an enlisted man passing an officer, so he doesnt have to greet tham at all.It doesnt sound at all like he was rude to the cops to any of the rest of us.
 
I think its safe to assume that the officer wasn't just trying to be a jerk, but was placed in a position he had never experienced before by witnessing you open carrying. You're probably in a better position to judge, but I know that this is why a lot of LEOs respond the way they do to such things.
This is why more people need to exercise their right to open carry. Granted, its not necessarily the safest thing in the world (compared to concealed carry), but its a constitutionally protected right and thus, needs to become a familiar sight to LEOs and civilians alike.
 
Arch, that is one of the reasons I am OCing, I feel that people need to be exposed to it in order to learn that GUNS are not bad. It is certain people, and not all people who carry have ANY intention what-so-ever of commiting a crime.

Tonight when I went by the store to pick up my smokes (I have been going by there every night for years now almost I may miss a night once a week or so) The officers where not there. I am there so often that I am never asked for an ID anymore even though I look to be younger than my age.
 
Doing something just because "it's my right" , just doesn't sound like a good idea to me. It may sound good but in reality it tends to end up , well...... kinda like it ended up for you. No matter how the law actually reads the reality is that people tend to freak OUT when they see a gun. .

Now if you're willing to put up W/ the harrassment that is going to befall you, by all means be my guest, And rest assured that while the cops are busy rousting you, My CCW & me are going to walk right by you & the cop & niether one of you will be the wiser.
 
Doing something just because "it's my right" , just doesn't sound like a good idea to me.
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You mean like voting or living in a neighborhood where you're a different race, religion or ethnicity than the majority?

Now if you're willing to put up W/ the harrassment that is going to befall you, by all means be my guest, And rest assured that while the cops are busy rousting you, My CCW & me are going to walk right by you & the cop & niether one of you will be the wiser.
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But I'm not GOING to put up with police harassment, ANY police harassment. The cop may have his fun for minutes or even hours violating my rights. That's then followed by MONTHS and YEARS of my violating his career.

Do I need to say it again?

1. I hate bullies.
2. I hold grudges.
3. I have ABSOLUTELY no sense of proportion.

Now, if the cop is willing to put up with the pitiless, mean spirited legal and political vendetta which I bring to bear against him, then he can by all means be my guest. And rest assured that while I'm ruining the career of that cop who harassed me, somebody ELSE won't be abused by him.
 
I do not know of any other state that does not recognize the fact that open carry is simply a handgun carried in a fully exposed and recognizable handgun holster. Even a flap holster worn outside the outer most layer.

Romma
No, incorrect, you and the holster have to maintain 90% or better invisibility so that if a police officer or some citizen or another official walk behind you, they can clearly see that you are carrying.
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A ridiculous and arbitrary definition since it assumes that a belt holster is always worn, and that it is worn between the 3 and 9 o'clock positions.
 
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