DougDubya
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Ah meef - you killed me with a typo
Stopping Power of .45 Compared to 9mm
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Dahwg
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Found you buried in the thread. The answer to that is, it depends on the weapon, but generally people are more accurate with the 9mm than with the .45 due primarily to less felt recoil. A good weapon and good technique goes a long way toward accurate shot placement. Get to the range as often as you can, and when you can't dry-fire and make sure you get your presentation and trigger pull right. Get lessons too.
For every point there is a counterpoint and a story about how this or that wouldn't work. Hell it's a wonder anyone gets stopped.
I know one thing for sure, MY wallet wouldn't stop a Daisy Red Rider much less a 45, too much air in there.
Shot placement period. with a 45
Ross
I know one thing for sure, MY wallet wouldn't stop a Daisy Red Rider much less a 45, too much air in there.
Shot placement period. with a 45
RossI call BS on that one...
I mean, if it can make its way through a cast iron frying pan (http://youtube.com/watch?v=2z7V8poGfmI) I'm sure it'll go through two layers of leather, plastic, and paper
poor_richard
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I'm not one of the gurus here but, I think that the debate between 9mm and .45 is far less important that the other factors. With either it is important to get a good, defensive JHP. That, and confidence with the gun (comes from fit, and ability to control the gun and shoot it accurately) are more important than the size difference between 9mm and .45.
I personally like 9mm because it's cheaper to shoot, holds more, and when loaded with Gold Dots becomes an effective SD weapon.
I personally like 9mm because it's cheaper to shoot, holds more, and when loaded with Gold Dots becomes an effective SD weapon.
I choose the 9mm. Many reliable platforms that were designed specifically for it, and a gun for every possible build, action preference, etc. Low recoil, high capacity, accurate, loads of good duty ammo and cheap practice ammo. I think anyone using .357 Sig, .40 or .45 ACP is well-armed. The 9mm performs about as well and has the advantages listed above. I think they're all pretty much the same - if you don't, choose something else.
dbarale
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Lobotomy Boy
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Lately my wife has become more concerned with home defense, and just minutes ago I had a conversation with her about handguns versus long guns. Basically I said exactly what DougW said--we need handguns because of their portability, but whenever given the choice, if our lives are at stake, pick long guns. She loves shooting handguns, but her experience with long guns was deer hunting with her first husband 30 years ago, and it wasn't a good experience. She associates long guns with getting her shoulder pounded by a .30-06 bolt action rifle. I convinced her to learn to shoot my PC9 and ARs, and we made a date to go to the rifle range this weekend.
But regarding the original discussion, I generally carry a .45 because that's what I shoot most often. I just enjoy the "thump!" of the big, slow round hitting its target. But I don't feel like I'm significantly more protected than when I'm carrying a 9mm, a .38, or even a .380 (though that's as far down the caliber food chain as I'm willing to go in a carry gun). If given the choice, I'd pick my Kel-Tec PLR-16 as my carry gun because I've seen the damage it does to critters and steel spinner targets--it packs a lot more wallop than any of my pistol-caliber guns. While technically I can legally carry the Kel-Tec, I have to believe that walking around with that hanging from my neck would cause more problems than it would solve.
If the S ever hits the F, however, I won't leave home without it. It makes a great backup gun to an AR since it takes the same mags and ammo.
But regarding the original discussion, I generally carry a .45 because that's what I shoot most often. I just enjoy the "thump!" of the big, slow round hitting its target. But I don't feel like I'm significantly more protected than when I'm carrying a 9mm, a .38, or even a .380 (though that's as far down the caliber food chain as I'm willing to go in a carry gun). If given the choice, I'd pick my Kel-Tec PLR-16 as my carry gun because I've seen the damage it does to critters and steel spinner targets--it packs a lot more wallop than any of my pistol-caliber guns. While technically I can legally carry the Kel-Tec, I have to believe that walking around with that hanging from my neck would cause more problems than it would solve.
If the S ever hits the F, however, I won't leave home without it. It makes a great backup gun to an AR since it takes the same mags and ammo.
jenrob
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If she likes shooting handguns, and you are able to get a hold of an AR for her to shoot I think you just bought yourself an AR.
Going from a 06 to an AR is like a 44mag to a 22lr
texagun
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Questions?
It's not necessarily BS. Strange things happen with bullets once they leave the barrel. I once shot a junked Subaru (with the permission of the owner) with a .500 S&W Magnum. The round went through the right rear panel and ended up in the driver's seat. The round that immediately before that one had hit the same panel, but richocheted down along the wheel well and into the ground in front of the right rear tire.
You can't ever rely on wallets, clothing, etc. to stop bullets, but you can't always rely on bullets to pierce them.
DougDubya
Member
Texagun - yeah, one question - what camera did you use? And that fish eye lens and the truly forced to the point of screaming perspective really is good at distorting the size of both bullets.
I wish I had the energy or desire to point out the exact volume of a .45 ACP against the exact volume of a 180 pound human being, then go the same for the difference with a 9mm.
I mean sure, .45 is about .08 inches larger than a 9mm. WHOOPIE DOOPIE!
I wish I had the energy or desire to point out the exact volume of a .45 ACP against the exact volume of a 180 pound human being, then go the same for the difference with a 9mm.
I mean sure, .45 is about .08 inches larger than a 9mm. WHOOPIE DOOPIE!
jenrob
Member
Try feeding that extra .08 into a 9mm try setting your bullets .08 deeper when you reload.
Drill a hole .08 in smaller than the bolt that needs to go in it and try to get the bolt in.
In that case a hi-power BB gun would work just as well. It's not that much smaller. course a 500S&W is only a little bigger than a 45
Man shoot what you are comfortable shooting. They all have there ups and downs. one has a little more energy one more vel. one more recoil one fast follow up shoot.
9mm better penetration 45acp more energy better knock down.
I don't want to be shoot with any of them cause if it doesn't kill me or even for some reason it doesn't penetrate the skin it's gonna hurt like you know what.
It would make me think what every I was doing maybe I had better stop doing it.
texagun
Member
Whaaaaaaaaat??? Don't believe everything you read on the internet folks!
According to the 2008 Gun Digest Centerfire Hangun Cartridge Ballistics Table:
Just for example:
9 MM 115 gr. FMJ: Energy at Muzzle=340 ft.-lb.......Energy at 50 yards=280 ft.-lb.
45 ACP 230 gr. FMJ Energy at Muzzle=396 ft.-lb........Energy at 50 yards=366 ft.-lb.
For +P comparisons, the margin in energy is much higher in favor of the .45 ACP
We can pick and choose rounds for comparison and get whatever results we want. Using typical rounds (at the weights and speeds most commonly found), my statement stands.
From Winchester's website, comparing baseline FMJ to FMJ:
A 230 gr .45 round travelling at 835 feet per second will have 356 ft lbs of energy at the muzzle.
A 115 gr 9mm round travelling at 1190 feet per second (which is below the original design specs) will have 362 ft lbs of energy.
The difference in the distance energy levels is because the .45 has greater mass and thus greater momentum.
From Winchester's website, comparing baseline FMJ to FMJ:
A 230 gr .45 round travelling at 835 feet per second will have 356 ft lbs of energy at the muzzle.
A 115 gr 9mm round travelling at 1190 feet per second (which is below the original design specs) will have 362 ft lbs of energy.
The difference in the distance energy levels is because the .45 has greater mass and thus greater momentum.
texagun
Member
.....and perhaps greater knock down power?????
There is no such thing as knock down power.
People are stopped by gunfire because 1)their circulatory systems are catastrophically disrupted, 2) their central nervous system is similarly disrupted, or 3) they respond to the trauma by shutting down mentally.
A well designed .45 hollowpoint has the potential to disrupt more tissue than some other rounds, but that potential does not translate into a certainty or even likelihood of achieving the desired effect. Many other rounds (including 9mm) have similar designs and comparable wounding potential. Realistically, all handgun calibers suck for stopping people; the key is to find those that suck the least and of that group, one tends to work about as well as the other.
People are stopped by gunfire because 1)their circulatory systems are catastrophically disrupted, 2) their central nervous system is similarly disrupted, or 3) they respond to the trauma by shutting down mentally.
A well designed .45 hollowpoint has the potential to disrupt more tissue than some other rounds, but that potential does not translate into a certainty or even likelihood of achieving the desired effect. Many other rounds (including 9mm) have similar designs and comparable wounding potential. Realistically, all handgun calibers suck for stopping people; the key is to find those that suck the least and of that group, one tends to work about as well as the other.
Indifferent
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I must find the link (sorry, but I'm at work) , but I saw a test result spreadsheet.
Percents of one shot stops in real life shootings, and time it took to kill a goat with one shot through the chest area.
357mag 96%, and a 7 sec. time to kill a goat
44mag 95%, and a 7 sec. time to kill a goat
45acp 93%, and a 8 sec. time to kill a goat
9mm 91%, and a 8 sec. time to kill a goat
22lr 30%, did not kill the goat
Now the 9mm is cheap at Walmart, 100 rounds for $18 or $19 bucks. Makes the 9mm seem very reasonable, in training and power.
Me I'm pretty much in a very safe area, I play with a .22lr and figure just keep pulling the trigger if I actually have to.
Course I'm entertaining the idea of a S&W .500 for a coffee table conversation peice.
peAce
Percents of one shot stops in real life shootings, and time it took to kill a goat with one shot through the chest area.
357mag 96%, and a 7 sec. time to kill a goat
44mag 95%, and a 7 sec. time to kill a goat
45acp 93%, and a 8 sec. time to kill a goat
9mm 91%, and a 8 sec. time to kill a goat
22lr 30%, did not kill the goat
Now the 9mm is cheap at Walmart, 100 rounds for $18 or $19 bucks. Makes the 9mm seem very reasonable, in training and power.
Me I'm pretty much in a very safe area, I play with a .22lr and figure just keep pulling the trigger if I actually have to.
Course I'm entertaining the idea of a S&W .500 for a coffee table conversation peice.
peAce
texagun
Member
I was a bit surprised by these figures, and wanted to educate myself, so I went to www.winchester.com and did a search on their currently manufactured FMJ handgun ammunition. The only 9 mm. FMJ round I could find was their 93 gr. Super-X (which wouldn't be a fair comparison). So I went to the Guns & Ammo website where they have ballistic tables for all currently manufactured ammo. Using the same manufacturer, and comparing 115 gr. 9mm FMJ to 230 gr. .45 ACP FMJ the spread is even greater, in favor of the .45 ACP:
http://www.gunsandammomag.com/ballistics/ballistic-tables/
115gr at muzzle=362........at 50 yds=302 ft-lbs
230gr at muzzle=401........at 50 yds-358 ft-lbs
That would probably explain why shooting at iron plates at 25 yds. with a 9mm is not very impressive. On the other hand, when you hit them with a .45 ACP they flop over very dramatically. Now, admittedly, I have never been attacked by an iron plate but the difference in "knock down power", or whatever you wish to call it, is dramatic. I personally carry a 9mm often, but favor the .45 ACP when conditions permit.
"Bullet placement is primary, adequate penetration is secondary. Anything else is just angels dancing on the head of a pin."
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easyg
Member
.45 vs 9mm?
Not even close....the .45 is the clear winner in effectiveness.
There's a very good reason that the vast majority of police agencies have abandoned the 9mm in favor of the .45ACP, .45GAP, and .40S&W....the 9mm is just not as reliably effective against human targets.
Not even close....the .45 is the clear winner in effectiveness.
There's a very good reason that the vast majority of police agencies have abandoned the 9mm in favor of the .45ACP, .45GAP, and .40S&W....the 9mm is just not as reliably effective against human targets.
The number of agencies is pretty meaningless, as the NYPD has no issues with 9mm, and by itself has a large percentage of the total number of LEOs period.
The majority of police agencies don't know (or really care) about ballistics. They switch because 1) it's the en vogue thing to do, 2) someone new takes over and wants "his" favorite involved, 3) they get a sweet heart deal (which is how the .45 GAP came into agencies).
The few agencies that do concern themselves with ballistics take various positions. With the Texas DPS, it was to dump the 9mm and the .45 in favor of the .357 Sig over penetration concern. With the FBI, it was to go to the .45 for a certain category of agent (the 1911 being platform of choice playing into that), the .40 for most (historically, in a downloaded version although that seems to have changed in recent times) and a heavier 9mm round for agents who still wanted this caliber. With SFPD, NYPD and others, it was to stick with the 9mm and be quite content in their choice.
The majority of police agencies don't know (or really care) about ballistics. They switch because 1) it's the en vogue thing to do, 2) someone new takes over and wants "his" favorite involved, 3) they get a sweet heart deal (which is how the .45 GAP came into agencies).
The few agencies that do concern themselves with ballistics take various positions. With the Texas DPS, it was to dump the 9mm and the .45 in favor of the .357 Sig over penetration concern. With the FBI, it was to go to the .45 for a certain category of agent (the 1911 being platform of choice playing into that), the .40 for most (historically, in a downloaded version although that seems to have changed in recent times) and a heavier 9mm round for agents who still wanted this caliber. With SFPD, NYPD and others, it was to stick with the 9mm and be quite content in their choice.
Halo
Member
I agree, inductive reasoning like "such and such agency uses it" is pretty meaningless for the private citizen. By all means, if one thinks the 45 ACP is the Hammer of Thor, that's what they should carry. Confidence in one's weapon and their ability to use it counts for a lot more than dubious statistics and hearsay. I think the OP has been given some good suggestions - get out there and explore your options. There are excellent pistols and defensive ammunition in both of these calibers.
jad0110
Member
Excellent point, thank you.
I've never been much for ft-lbs of energy. It is only a very rough yardstick to judge a projectile's effectiveness. A fastball probably has more ft-lbs of energy than a 45 ACP, but which would you rather be hit with? Now, do I think there is a difference between a round with 60 ft-lbs and another with 4,000? Sure. But 300 and 350? Or even 200 and 500? Probably not, though I could be wrong. I sure won't be volunteering to find out!
Look at it like this: If you have one dollar to your name and then receive a second, you have doubled your "wealth" ... but you are still poor! A dollar just isn't much $$$. A 357 Magnum with 600 ft-lbs of energy may sound like a lot (600 lbs, woah), but it really isn't much in human terms. After all, according to Newton's 3rd law, "To every action there is an equal and opposite reaction". And a 357 Mag certainly won't send you flying back across the room when you fire it (or get hit with it) as if clobbered by a 600 lb weight.
As has been said, the key factors IMVHO are placement and penetration. Of course, the attitude/psycology of the bullet's recipient play a huge roll too. The "Three Ps" perhaps
? buzz_knox and Halo summed it up pretty well actually. The primary determinant is software, not hardware.In the end, all we are really doing is hurtling very tiny chunks of metal at high speed. Not that I care to be hit with any of it
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