No. I was referring to the 9mm and other "weaker" calibers (.38, .380, .25, .22, etc...).
That’s my point, the standard 45 and the “standard” 40S&W load are both weaker than the standard NATO 9mm load, which is the standard load every where else in the world except the United States, because of SAAMI rules.
Do the math.
If the differences are so small, then why did police agencies across the nation trade in their 9mm pistols in favor of pistols that launch a more powerful caliber?
Many folks still wonder why. Probably why many are going “BACK” to the 9mm, one example was San Diego PD IIRC.
Although many are staying with the 40. I am not a fan of the 40. But nothing wrong with it either. I personally see no advantage of it over either the 45 or the 9mm.
So I ask you, what other conclusion can one draw other than the notion that the .45 is just too powerful for some folks?
Now I agree with you that "it's just a .45"....I don't see what the big deal is either....but we must remember that there ARE some shooters here who ARE weaker or disabled or otherwise compromised.
SIGH! Now you seem to be confusing recoil with power.
My 20 yr old daughter prefers a 1911 in 45acp because I can get the weapon to fit her hands properly. She is 4'10'' and about 105 lbs. Yet don't get in a shooting contest with her. Both my Daughters started shooting at the age of 8. Both prefer the 45acp. My oldest who stands 5'6'' prefers the Glock 30. Only a real yahoo thinks it is about recoil.
I qualified Expert with the 45acp for my 10 years in the Marine Corps. But whether I have one of my 9 1911's in 45acp or one of my High Powers in 9mm, doesn't matter to me.
In my appropriate Milt Sparks VMII holster with notable exception will either be a Colt Gunsite Pistol, government length of course, or my factory chromed lightly tweaked by Novak, Browning High Power. does that sound like I prefer one cartridge over the other?
The fact that this never ending debate has become increasingly esoteric only underscores, in my opinion, just how similar the major handgun rounds are in their terminal performance. Just about all the quality hollow point designs show surprisingly similar penetration and expansion results among the various calibers. With this lack of gross empirical differences, people instead delve into technical minutiae and anecdotes in an effort to prove the superiority of one over another. It is at once both frustrating and amusing.
BINGO!
If you think 45 is better than 9 or 40 is better than 45, or 9 is better, you really don’t understand the question.
I am the weapon. The gun/caliber is the tool. And I do know how to use my tools.
But if the expansion is similar, and if the penetration is similar, why not go with the heavier bullet delivering more ft. lbs. of energy?
Exactly my point. The 45acp has less energy than the 9mm. Damn facts keep getting in the way again.
NATO STANDARD 45ACP 230gr FMC @ 850fps = muzzle energy of 369 ft/lbs
NATO STANDARD 9mm 124gr FMC @ 1250fps = muzzle energy of 430 ft/lbs
(source: Winchester ammunition ballistics page)
Not to mention the fact that you cannot rely upon expansion as it's never guaranteed.
As the old saying goes....a 9mm might expand, but a .45 will never shrink.
Just as you cannot depend on the penetration of the 45acp. The 9mm will penetrate. No less luminaries and champions of the 45acp as LtCol Cooper and Chuck Taylor have repeatedly stated that the 45 suffers from poor penetration.
The 9mm for 80 years the criticism has been over penetration. The non magnum caliber that is most likely to penetrate a Bullet proof vest is the 9mm, not 45acp.
Why not carry a .357 instead if your goal is delivering energy foot-pounds?
BINGO, again.
No dept has ever dropped the 357 Magnum for lack of stopping power. Only lack of fire power. The police felt they needed more rounds, that and speed of reloading (another I need more rounds function) is/was the specifically stated reason for going to bottom feeders.
In fact it is a reason many use the very hot 9mm’s or go to the 357SIG. Which is a 9mm on steroids.
Massad Ayoob - "The Gun Digest Book of Combat Handgunnery 6th edition" page 253.
I don't think Mas would suggest a .22 over a .45 but I do think it's interesting that weapons choice is the last thing listed in priority.
Reliability should be the first reason. Second reason should be fit, to the individual shooter.
Caliber should be the last choice if one still thinks that is still important.
Seems pretty reasonable coming from an career police office, champion target shooter, author and expert witness. I think I'll stick to his suggestion rather than get wrapped up in pointless debate.
Well…..a career part time police officer. I have met the man, an like him. But he doesn’t walk on water either. A lot of good idea’s but many are a bit off the mark too.
The .45 ACP has superior stopping power to the .38 Super, regardless of your above post.
Just cause you and others say it, don’t make it true.
Not surprisingly, there's hardly a law enforcement agency or military organization on earth that uses the .38 Super, whereas the venerable .45 ACP continues to be widely used after about a century. The Super is also uncommon in the civilian shooting world.
Absolutely, because the NATO standard 9mm can and does most every thing the 38 super does in a smaller package. The super’s strength, is that it was designed to work in the 1911 size weapon. And as USPSA/IPSC has shown, it is very effective at out competing the 45 on the competition field. I wonder if it is that recoil thing’y?
The 38 super shines when used by a skilled reloader. It is an enthusiasts cartridge. And fine when used with quality bullets as a defense load. Just not generally used for that.
I should stop being sucked into these things with folks who are unprejudiced by facts.
If folks put as much energy in maintaining and cleaning their weapons as arguing this useless BS, shooting would be advancing much faster than it does.
Go figure.
Fred
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