Stopping power of BP vs. Modern Cartridges

[arcticap]

So why aren't he "bad guys" using these?

A CT store owner was murdered by a mentally ill customer in a widely publicized case in 2001. The victim was shot in the stomach several times with a cap & ball revolver. IIRC it was a Ruger Old Army.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=92532

http://articles.courant.com/2002-01-04/news/0201042642_1_store-owner-affidavit-child-molester

 

[SleazyRider]

Thanks for the links, Articap; looks like I stand corrected. I'm still left wondering why, after nearly 10 years have passed, legislators haven't "solved" the problem by requiring the licensing of cap-and-ball revolvers---not that I'm suggesting they do!

 

[Erich]

I've worked on a murder case in which a .44 "1851" was allegedly used. Very effective. I seem to recall that I've worked on one other BP shooting case - have to think about it (my office handles a lot of appeals, and they sometimes blur together in my mind).

Biggest downside that I see is the somewhat reduced reliability and larger size of these weapons. Effectiveness of the projectile (given a full-sized .36 or .44 BP revolver) is not likely to be any more of an issue than with any other handgun: shot placement and adequate penetration can be gained with these as well as most other handguns, and that's what it takes to ring the bell (based on what I've seen in the over 200 handgun killing cases I've worked on in some capacity).

Then there's this (not my case):
STATE of Tennessee v. Tony Allan PHIPPS, 2006 WL 891269 (Tenn.Crim.App.)

…Mr. Royse examined a .44 caliber percussion revolver taken from Defendant's possession and submitted to him by the Kingsport Police Department. He also examined two spherical lead projectiles and a blue t-shirt taken from the victim. He explained that the revolver was an Italian reproduction of a Colt Model 1851 Percussion 44 caliber revolver. The weapon submitted by the police for examination had two empty chambers and four loaded chambers. It was a single action revolver commonly known as a “black powder weapon” or “handgun.” Single action means that the hammer of the gun must be pulled back prior to each time the gun is fired. Because the gun is a “black powder” weapon, a lot of smoke is released each time the gun is fired.

“Percussion” revolvers differ from most modern firearms in that the ammunition is loaded into the front of the chambers of the cylinder and most modern firearms are loaded from the rear. The weapon has six chambers in the cylinder in which to load ammunition. The bullets are loaded into the weapon by pouring black powder or pyrodex into the front chambers and then placing the bullets in the chamber. The bullet must be pushed down into the chamber using the loading lever because the diameter of the bullet exceeds that of the chamber. The bullet must also be lubricated to prevent chain fire. Chain fire occurs when the gun is fired a single time and more than one chamber discharges at the same time. Once the bullet is loaded, a percussion cap, the source of the ignition, is placed on the rear of each chamber of the cylinder to cause firing of the revolver.

Dr. Royse test fired the weapon and made a comparison to the two spherical projectiles taken from the victim's body. Dr. Royse determined that the bullets taken from the victim's body had the same class characteristics and similar individual characteristics as the test bullets fired from the revolver. Because of the nature of the projectile and the revolver, however, Dr. Royse could not conclusively determine that the bullets taken from the victim's body were fired from the revolver.

Dr. Royse also conducted a muzzle to garment distance determination on the blue t-shirt. The purpose of this test was to determine how far the weapon was from the victim wearing the garment at the time the weapon was fired. Because of the type of weapon used, the results of this test were inconclusive. There was nothing the police could have done in the handling of the t-shirt which could have resulted in conclusive results.

Dr. Gretel Harlan Stephens testified that she is a forensic pathologist employed by the State of Tennessee at East Tennessee State University's Quillen College of Medicine. She graduated from the University of Tennessee, Knoxville, Memphis State University and the University of Tennessee Medical School. She did an anatomic and clinical pathology residency at the University of Tennessee and City of Memphis Hospitals and is board certified in anatomic and clinical pathology. She worked primarily as a hospital pathologist for a number of years before practicing forensic pathology full-time. She was qualified by experience and passed her boards to become a forensic pathologist in 1994. While practicing in Johnson City, Dr. Stephens has conducted over one thousand and fifty autopsies. Prior to that she conducted over three thousand autopsies while serving as assistant to both the Shelby County and the Davidson County medical examiners. Dr. Stephens was qualified as an expert witness in forensic pathology.

Dr. Stephens conducted the autopsy on the victim on September 12, 2001. She determined that the victim had been shot two times, once in the chest and once in the abdomen. The victim died as a result of these gun shot wounds. The first wound examined, wound A, was found in the right side back of the chest, and followed a bullet path ending in the left side of the body. Dr. Stephens described the path of the bullet in detail, indicating all bones and internal organs struck by the bullet. In her opinion, the victim's chances of surviving wound A were less then fifty percent even had the victim been in the emergency room and subject to immediate emergency care.

Wound B indicated that the bullet entered the body in the middle of the upper torso, a little to the right of the midline of the body, and lodged against the back body. Again, Dr. Stephens described the path of the bullet and the resulting damage to the internal organs. She said that wound B would also have been fatal “without immediate excellent medical care.” Each of the wounds could have been fatal by itself. The victim did not die immediately from the wounds. He was resuscitated and kept alive on the way to the emergency room, but he was beyond resuscitation by the time he arrived there.

Dr. Stephens also did a test to determine the distance of the victim from the weapon at the time the wounds were sustained. She explained that when handguns or rifles are fired there are small particles of burning gunpowder and filler material from the charge which propel the bullet out of the gun. These particles will deposit in and on the skin's surface if the weapon is within two feet from the muzzle to the skin. The closer an individual is to the weapon, the more particles will be deposited on skin or clothing.

Dr. Stephens found a few widely scattered particles on the palm and back of the victim's right hand. She found no gunpowder residue on the victim's shirt or around his wounds. Based on this information, Dr. Stephens concluded that the distance between the end of the weapon and the victim's torso was “slightly beyond two feet or further.” The residue on the victim's hand was spaciously deposited. There was no evidence indicating that the victim's hand was extended toward the weapon. Dr. Stephens opined that the victim's right hand was likely at the periphery of the black cloud emitted with the firing of the gun, indicating the victim was at least two feet from the gun. She also indicated the victim may have acquired the residue from an environmental surface.
Dr. Stephens stated that if the bullet was fired parallel to the ground, the bullet path indicated that the victim was leaning slightly toward the gun both times he was struck. The bullet would not have moved the body on impact. She said it is possible that the victim was turning to leave when the second shot was fired. In such a scenario, wound B, which entered the victim's front right torso, would be the result of the first shot fired, and wound A would reflect the second shot. The victim's blood alcohol content was .088 percent, and the lining of the fluid on the inside of his eye was .077 percent. The portion inside the eye is a more accurate reflection of what the brain was experiencing. The portion in the blood is slightly above the mark at which someone can be prosecuted for drinking and driving. She acknowledged that if the victim consistently drank this much, he might have appeared less intoxicated than he was in actuality.

The victim also had diazepam, or Valium, and its breakdown product in his blood stream. The breakdown product in his blood stream indicated that his body had already absorbed part of the Valium and had begun clearing the drug from his system. The quantity of Valium in his system was in a “therapeutic range” and would have made the victim “more mellow” and “less likely to be panicky or nervous.” The Valium and alcohol combined might have made the victim less coordinated but would not have rendered him unconscious.

On cross-examination, Dr. Stephens said that it is possible the victim could have gotten the residue on his hand while reaching for Defendant's throat. However, she indicated that if this scenario had taken place there would have been some residue on the victim's body. She said that alcohol would have made the victim more likely to act on impulse and without thought. She agreed that if the victim was “furious” and “charging” down the hall, he was acting on his feelings and would likely follow through with his intentions unless something stopped him. She said that alcohol affects one's self-control and an individual may be inclined to start a fight in a situation where he or she otherwise would not do so.

 

[batjka]

Erich,

Thank you very much for posting this. This is the first time where we have actual wound description and expert testimony pertaining to the shooting.

Was the shooter convicted or cleared due to self-defense?

I would assume that the 1851 was a brass frame. Lots of people buy them because they are pretty cheap as compared to the steel frame variety. Do you think the shooter used a brass frame load, which is 17-20 grs of FFFG? If that's the case, a 30gr load would have been even more effective.

I see the shooter was able to get off two shots at a guy charging at him down the hallway. Pretty good for a "slow" single action.

In this case we also see that the victim was on drugs and alcohol, yet he was stopped in his tracks by the lead ball.

Thanks again. If you can come up with the other BP shooting case, please do not hesitate to post it here.

 

[Erich]

Hi batjka,

Phipps (in the case I cited) was convicted and his appeal was unsuccessful. The same was true in the case on which I worked (although the appeal was partially successful - I got the death penalty reduced to life imprisonment).

 

[batjka]

Damn,

I thought the gun was used in self defense. Well, too bad.

Was it really a brass frame revolver? Just curious if my guess was right.

 

[arcticap]

French bar owner shoots dead armed robber with a BP revolver

Below is the text of a French newspaper article that was the topic of a THR thread and which was computer translated to English by freetranslation.com.

The shooting was later found to be justified.
For further details see the original thread.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=422875&highlight=french

A tobacconist of Flaviac (Ardèche) suspected to have killed by bullet Friday afternoon a young man of 19 years, that threatened it with an axe, was placed in police custody, one has learn Saturday of sources close of the investigation.

A tobacconist of Flaviac (Ardèche) suspected to have killed by bullet Friday afternoon a young man of 19 years, that threatened it with an axe, was placed in police custody, one has learn Saturday of sources close of the investigation.

The young man would have attempted to point the bar tobacco with two accomplices. The tobacconist, seizing behind his counter a gun to black powder, would have done a notice shooting in the air, releasing the fury of the aggressors of which the one began devastating the places with the axe.
The tobacconist, feeling threatened, would have pulled a second time, injuring seriously the young armed man at the level of the thorax.

The braqueurs then took the escape towards Loriol (Drôme), where they live, and went in a medical office in order to let the injured care for, but the doctor was able only to note his death.

The tobacconist as well as the two accomplices of the presumed braqueur were shouted at and placed in police custody Friday in afternoon end.

The floor of Deprive must remove itself from the facts to the profit of the center of instruction of Avignon, that should open a judicial inquiry Sunday, and could charge the tobacconist and the presumed braqueurs.

The investigation for murder and flight to hand army was confided in the policemen, that will have to determine if the shooting was a gesture of legitimate defense, as the asserts the tobacconist

 

[Erich]

batjka - Phipps claimed self-defense; his claim was rejected at trial and on appeal. As I mentioned, Phipps (a Tennessee case) was not mine, so I don't know anything about the case other than the facts recited in the opinion, the relevant ones of which were set forth supra.

I've not gone into the facts of the case that I worked on other than to note that I worked on one such.