Storing guns out of state - not my residence

[blackd24]

I am a resident of VA that travels to PA frequently. I am a member of a gun club in PA and shoot a lot with my dad. When I’m in PA, I stay at his house. He owns his own guns, no issues, etc.

I really don’t like taking guns through the republic of Maryland, especially the big scary super semi full auto ones... would I have any problems storing an AR permanently at my dads house in PA to shoot while I’m visiting? I guess same question for pistols/shotguns/less scary bolt guns.

 

[Frank Ettin]

... would I have any problems storing an AR permanently at my dads house in PA to shoot while I’m visiting? I guess same question for pistols/shotguns/less scary bolt guns.

Leaving your gun with someone in another State is highly problematic under federal law.

The federal laws relating to the transfer of a gun from a resident of one State to a resident of another (i. e., the Gun Control Act of 1968 or GCA68) are about physical possession, not ownership. GCA68 was Congress' responding to enormous public pressure after the assassinations by gunfire of three wildly popular public figures -- JFK, RFK and MLK. The law was intended to regulate and control the interstate transfer of firearms. It was structured so that to the extent reasonably possible any transfer of possession of a gun from a resident of one State to a resident of another would have to go through an FFL.

And in the context of the concerns intended to be addressed by Congress through GCA68, it's possession and not ownership that matters. Someone who has a gun in his possession can use it, whether or not he has legal title to it.

Leaving your gun with someone is a transfer. It certainly is under federal law, and would also most likely be also considered a transfer under state laws (and it could also be an illegal transfer under state and/or federal law). That's just what "transfer" means.

1. In general, any transfer of a firearm from a resident of one State to a resident of another must go through an FFL who will follow all usual formalities (e. g., completion of the 4473). There are a few limited, narrow, specific exceptions: if you have an appropriate federal firearms license; inheritance by will or intestate succession; or a loan (subject to a number of limitations which will be discussed in more detail below).
   
   
2. The applicable federal statutes are: 18 USC 922(a)(3); 18 USC 922(a)(5); and 18 USC 922 (b)(3). The full texts of those statutes may be found here.
   
   
3. The federal laws I've cited are about possession, not necessarily ownership.
   
   
   • Possession means:

     1 a : the act of having or taking into control...

     
     
   • Transfer is about possession, not ownership.
     
     Some definitions of "transfer" (emphasis added):
     
     
     • http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/transfer:

       ...Transfer encompasses the sale and every other method, direct or indirect, of (1) disposing of property or an interest therein or possession thereof;...

       
       
     • http://www.thefreedictionary.com/transferred:

       2. Law To make over the possession or legal title of; convey.

     • http://law.yourdictionary.com/transfer:

       Any and every method of removing something from one person or place to another; specifically, the handing over of possession or control of assets or title. ...

     
     
   • Let's look at the statutes:
     
     
     • 18 USC 922(a)(3), which provides in pertinent part (emphasis added) as follows:

       (a) It shall be unlawful—
       ...
       
       (3) for any person, ... to transport into or receive in the State where he resides ...any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State,...

       
       
     • And 18 USC 922(a)(5), which provides in pertinent part (emphasis added) as follows:

       (a) It shall be unlawful—
       ...
       
       (5) for any person ... to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person ...who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in ... the State in which the transferor resides..;

     
     
   • Note carefully the words of those statutes. Words, like "transport", "receive", "obtained", "transfer", "give", "transport", and "deliver" do not necessarily imply ownership and include possession. They will be read and applied by a court according to their ordinary meanings. See Perrin v. United States, 444 U.S. 37 (United States Supreme Court, 1979), at 42:

     ...A fundamental canon of statutory construction is that, unless otherwise defined, words will be interpreted as taking their ordinary, contemporary, common meaning...

   
   
4. With regard to loans under GCA68, let's look at the applicable statutes again:
   
   
   • 18 USC 922(a)(3), which provides in pertinent part (emphasis added) as follows:

     (a) It shall be unlawful—
     ...
     
     (3) for any person, ... to transport into or receive in the State where he resides ...any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State,...

     
     
   • And 18 USC 922(a)(5), which provides in pertinent part (emphasis added) as follows:

     (a) It shall be unlawful—
     ...
     
     (5) for any person ... to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person ...who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in ... the State in which the transferor resides; except that this paragraph shall not apply to
     
     

     (A) the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a firearm made to carry out a bequest ..., and
     
     (B) the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;​

     ..

     
     
   • So under federal law a resident of one State may loan a gun to a resident of another State, but only temporarily and only for a lawful sporting purpose.
     
     
     • Temporary means:

       : continuing for a limited amount of time : not permanent
       
       : intended to be used for a limited amount of time

       
       
     • Sporting means (in this context):

       ...of, relating to, used, or suitable for sport...

       
       
     • Purpose means (in this context):

       : the reason why something is done or used : the aim or intention of something

     
     
   • So a court is likely to look at the "temporary loan for a lawful sporting purpose" exception to the prohibition on interstate transfers to apply when a gun is loaned so that the person it's been loaned to can engage in a specific sporting activity (i. e., a hunt, a competition, etc.) of limited duration. "Temporary" would refer to the duration of that activity. Such an interpretation would be consistent with the common meanings of the words used in the statutes and the underlying purpose (controlling interstate transfers of firearms) of GCA68.
     
     
   • So you may go to another State where (under 18 USC 922(a)(5)), a friend may loan you a gun to, for example, go target shooting together, or an outfitter may rent you a gun for a guided hunt. But since there is no applicable "loan" exception in 18 USC 922(a)(3), a loan of a firearm may not cross state lines to the borrower's State of residence.
   
   
5. Is there no way to store your gun in another State?
   
   
   • Leaving a gun with someone in another State clearly raises interstate transfer problems when that person has access to the gun.
     
     
   • One possible way to avoid the problem would be to secure the gun or guns in a locked case or similar container to which only you have the key or combination.
     
     
   • That might avoid the transfer problem inherent in having someone store your guns, ATF has advised here that one may ship a firearm to himself in care of another person in another State.
     
     Specifically ATF has said (emphasis added):

     6. May I lawfully ship a firearm to myself in a different State?
     
     

     Any person may ship a firearm to himself or herself in the care of another person in the State where he or she intends to hunt or engage in any other lawful activity. The package should be addressed to the owner “in the care of” the out-of-State resident. Upon reaching its destination, persons other than the owner must not open the package or take possession of the firearm.​

   
   
6. Note that violations of federal law regarding interstate transfers are punishable by up to five years in federal prison and/or a fine; and since the crime is a felony one will lose his gun rights for the rest of his life.

 

[roscoe]

So what about a storage unit? (price aside). I had figured that, since it was never in anyone else's control, it would be legal.

 

[Blue Jays]

In brief...it sounds like double-locked boxes with one set of keys (plus tamper-proof tape) is worth researching.

The complexity of such an honest desire is just staggering.
One can see how a person can easily and inadvertently break laws.

It would be prudent to print two copies of applicable laws.
Store one inside the lockable gun box and another for reference.

 

[RETG]

So long as you "follow" the law, Federal law Title 18 926A. you are legal to travel through Maryland. Does Maryland have a habit of stopping out of state vehicles that are not violating a law?

 

[blackd24]

No Maryland is fine, I keep everything locked up and I never travel with ammo. Interstate travel protects transportation of guns under federal law as you mentioned, as long as you don’t stop for gas, for example. I know these are a lot of technicalities, but you don’t want to get the wrong cop.

So if I’m in PA, staying at my parents house (my childhood home), am I not allowed to leave my guns there if I go to the store or something? At that point, would I be transferring them to whoever is home?

 

[AlexanderA]

The question of "transfer" hinges on "accessibility." If you leave the guns in someone's house, in a locked container to which only you have the key (or the combination), then a "transfer" has not taken place. (The container has to be secure enough so that the guns are, in fact, not accessible.)

This is a better arrangement than renting a storage unit, which is notoriously insecure.

As a Virginia resident, I was seriously considering these issues last year, when draconian "assault rifle" legislation was on the table in Virginia. I could have rented a storage unit in West Virginia, or left the guns at my brother-in-law's house in Maryland (in a secure locker). Believe it or not, the Maryland option appeared to be more viable than the West Virginia option. (Maryland does not outlaw pre-owned AR-15's.)

 

[blackd24]

Is that pre-2013? Or pre-owned as I’m bought in another state legally and transferred in?

 

[Frank Ettin]

....So if I’m in PA, staying at my parents house (my childhood home), am I not allowed to leave my guns there if I go to the store or something? At that point, would I be transferring them to whoever is home?

Keep your guns in locked cases to which no one else has a key or the combination. Or you could buy a small safe to keep at your parents' house -- just be sure they don't have the key or combination.

Basically, if your parents have access they have possession (and a transfer of possession ha occurred).

In fact there's some good federal law on what possession means. See U.S. v. Booth, 111 F.3d 1 (C.A.1 (Mass.), 1997, at 1):

...The law recognizes two kinds of possession, actual possession and constructive possession.... Even when a person does not actually possess an object, he may be in constructive possession of it. Constructive possession exists when a person knowingly has the power and the intention at a given time of exercising dominion and control over an object or over the area in which the object is located. The law recognizes no distinction between actual and constructive possession, either form of possession is sufficient. Possession of an object may be established by either direct evidence or by circumstantial evidence. It is not necessary to prove ownership of the object,...

 

[blackd24]

Thanks for the great info. 99.99% chance I would never have an issue with this, but would rather stay on the right side of this. Seems pretty stupid to me.. nothing “common sense” about guns laws. My dad has his own guns that do the same thing mine do... but I digress. I will make sure to transport AND store them in a locked container while in PA.

I think it’s a bad idea to leave guns up there long term so I will either be transporting or shooting my dads when I visit.

 

[Frank Ettin]

.... Seems pretty stupid to me...

So what? It is what it is.

.... nothing “common sense” about guns laws. ...

There's nothing "common sense" about law in general -- at least unless one has enough background knowledge and a sufficiently robust understanding of how law works.

As has been said here many times before, to understand the law, one needs to actually study it (whether formally or informally). Much in the law is non-intuitive or will make sense only when one has sufficient background knowledge. You can't expect to be able to figure out what the law is or how it works just by trying to "reason it out." One needs to do the research, study cases, and do the reading.

 

[Jim Watson]

Would it be legit for Dad to keep an identical gun on hand for the OP's use or would that constitute a straw purchase?

 

[George P]

No Maryland is fine, I keep everything locked up and I never travel with ammo. Interstate travel protects transportation of guns under federal law as you mentioned, as long as you don’t stop for gas, for example. I know these are a lot of technicalities, but you don’t want to get the wrong cop.

So if I’m in PA, staying at my parents house (my childhood home), am I not allowed to leave my guns there if I go to the store or something? At that point, would I be transferring them to whoever is home?

You CAN stop for gas or a meal; you cannot stay overnight.

 

[blackd24]

Gotcha, thanks for that - good to know.

 

[Frank Ettin]

Would it be legit for Dad to keep an identical gun on hand for the OP's use or would that constitute a straw purchase?

That would be a loan (which is a temporary transfer of possession while the lender retains legal title (ownership)).

See post 2 for an outline of how loans are covered under GCA68.

There might also be applicable state laws relating to transfers or loans of firearms. But I'm not going to do the research.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...the big scary super semi full auto ones...

Just noticed this. What is a "semi full auto" gun? I know about semi-automatic guns and full-automatic guns, but have never heard of a semi full auto gun.

In any event, be advised that, AFAIK, there are some special rules relating to the interstate transportation of full auto guns (and other NFA items).

 

[blackd24]

I guess bad attempt at humor.. just your regular semi-auto AR.

 

[Jim Watson]

"Semi-full auto" is a scare term coined by a gun restricting politician's spokesperson flunky for a media event.

I guess "assault weapon" was no longer scary enough.

 

[orpington]

This is similar to the situation I questioned a few weeks ago where my coworker has a brother who nearly passed away from coronavirus and his brother’s girlfriend was concerned about having a pistol around which she knows nothing about and it might have been the father’s at one time, father now deceased and coworker and his brother are in Pennsylvania, father lives in New Jersey.

I never did get a good answer and the thread was suddenly closed for no apparent reason. I never did pursue it further after that, especially since the brother never passed away.

My conclusions were that all this Form 4473 stuff is confusing, and you want to muddle through the confusion as best as is possible and you want to do it as legally as possible. For the longest time I believed the Form 4473 was easily searchable and could be used to track, and, in this case, it would be nice to know who has the Form 4473 on this???

But, now that the brother has survived, it’s not just a matter of asking him. He is known to be evasive and a habitual liar, although no criminal record. So, when he eventually does pass away and his 2 decades younger girlfriend poses the same questions—well, hopefully we are long retired and have gone our separate ways, because I never figured it all out fully, in the end.

Just another real life and confusing situation that will make your head spin.

 

[CapnMac]

Would it be legit for Dad to keep an identical gun on hand for the OP's use or would that constitute a straw purchase?

IIRC, it's "straw" if Dad uses Son's money.

Pretty sure Dad cannot buy to "gift" the firearm without going through the State-to-State process, too. (Gifting the thing obviates the "loan" aspect.

Or, there'd have to be one-way security of the firearm at Dad's house.

 

[CapnMac]

I never did get a good answer and the thread was suddenly closed for no apparent reason. I never did pursue it further after that, especially since the brother never passed away.

Well, there were too many generalities involved, which just created pointless friction among those commenting.

The Statutes are about concrete, specific cases, not murky generalities.

That question needed precision, as in who actually had physical possession, and in what location. As seen above, ownership is very much secondary to possession under Federal law.

 

[blackd24]

Yep purchasing as gift is not an option. Something about state lines... there really can be no transfer between 2 out of state residents without an FFL and shipping involved. That is, for more than a temporary transfer. Even though it’s my own dad!

I have bought pistols in PA when I saw a great deal or a rare find. They were shipped to VA where I did the background check at my FFL. The best part is I drove up the next weekend and shot it at the range in PA where I originally bought it! So silly. Oh well.

 

[orpington]

Well, there were too many generalities involved, which just created pointless friction among those commenting.

The Statutes are about concrete, specific cases, not murky generalities.

That question needed precision, as in who actually had physical possession, and in what location. As seen above, ownership is very much secondary to possession under Federal law.

Okay, I guess the brother owns it, when he passes away, she then owns it and gives it to my coworker to handle. Presuming this brother someday passes away sooner than my coworker, who is younger and healthier, and his girlfriend who is much younger and presumably much healthier. But life doesn’t always pan out as expected.

If someday the brother passes and the girlfriend wants to gift the pistol, she should fill out a Form 4473, but that’s down the road now and probably none of my business.

 

[George P]

My conclusions were that all this Form 4473 stuff is confusing, and you want to muddle through the confusion as best as is possible and you want to do it as legally as possible. For the longest time I believed the Form 4473 was easily searchable and could be used to track, and, in this case, it would be nice to know who has the Form 4473 on this???

But, now that the brother has survived, it’s not just a matter of asking him. He is known to be evasive and a habitual liar, although no criminal record. So, when he eventually does pass away and his 2 decades younger girlfriend poses the same questions—well, hopefully we are long retired and have gone our separate ways, because I never figured it all out fully, in the end

What is confusing about a 4473? If out of state and not specifically bequeathed to someone in a will it must be transferred through a FFL in the state of the recipient. 4473s are not used to track and why would it matter who has it?

 

[orpington]

I think at the time my coworker wondered if the 4473 was under his deceased father who lived in New Jersey, if a 4473 existed on it at all, as it may have been purchased before 1968. Or under his brother in Pennsylvania and the implications of his brother’s girlfriend’s ability to even gift it to my coworker should he pass away, which I thought was a given, but apparently not.

And the perceived “trail” of 4473s and whether or not the girlfriend would bother with the Form 4473 and the FFL due to her dislike of firearms.

A lot of ifs here but in the end I suspect odds are this pistol belonged to the brother all along and a Form 4473 with his name on it exists somewhere, but I think folks got a little nervous due to trails that were perceived to dead end improperly.