"straw purchase" question

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.cheese.

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I was thinking about this. It's just a thought, not something I'm actually dealing with.

Person A wants to buy Person B a gun as a gift. Person A buys the gun and gives it to Person B.

If Person B is not a prohibited person, it's ok.

If Person B is a prohibited person, it's a straw purchase.

How does the law deal with cases where Person A has no reason to believe that Person B is a prohibited person?

Obviously, if done for the purposes of getting around the background check, there is malicious intent and it is a crime.

What if it is for example, a husband getting his wife a gift, and doesn't realize his wife had a felony conviction before he met her and never got clemency?

I'm just curious.
 
It is person A's responsibility to know if they are giving a gun to a prohibited person. If person A asks, and person B says they are not a prohibited person, then person A is off the hook kind of.

At the end of the day, it's going to be up to a judge and/or jury if they believe that person A didn't know his wife was a convicted felon.


-T.
 
As I understand it, the key issue in a straw purchase is the money. If you buy a gun (YOUR money), and give it to someone else, it is NOT a straw purchase. It is a 'gift.' If it was THEIR money that bought the gun, it IS a straw purchase, and illegal.

What you're talking about is providing a prohibited person with a firearm. It's a minor distinction, I know, but they are separate legal concepts so I think that clarity is important. ;)

That being said, it's your responsibility to be reasonably sure the recipient is not a felon/etc. What 'reasonably' means is the big issue. It's going to be a little different for every jurisdiction/prosecutor/jury/etc....
 
CypherNinja is correct. The specifically says something along the line of "reasonably belives the person isnt prohibited..." or it may be phrased something like it's illegal to sell/give a gun to a person who you know is prohibited, or some-such.

Basically, it's supposed to only be a problem if you know, or are reasonably sure, the person cant have a gun, but, you ignore that, and do it anyways. I have no idea how it works in practice though...

I cant see to google up the actual law and its wording for some reason, but I suck, and Google hates me, so....
 
IIRC, the wording on the form is similar to this...

From the ATF's FAQs -

"B1) To whom may an unlicensed person transfer firearms under the GCA? [Back]


A person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his State, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may loan or rent a firearm to a resident of any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law."
 
thanks guys. That answered my question. I was just curious.

Ask your lawyer. IBTL
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Why would I need a lawyer for asking a question out of sheer curiosity?... and why would this thread be locked?

I'm not a prohibited person, nor am I actually involved in any situation like I mentioned in the original post. I'm just somebody who finds the law interesting, and that's probably why I'm starting law school in a month and a half.
 
Why the IBTLs? Seems like a simple legal issue that can be discussed with proper and correct information.
 
Usually threads involving questions about how to break the law are locked. It's not high road.
 
Who is trying to break the law here?

This is a simple question asked, and answered (mostly).

As I understand it, the key issue in a straw purchase is the money. If you buy a gun (YOUR money), and give it to someone else, it is NOT a straw purchase. It is a 'gift.' If it was THEIR money that bought the gun, it IS a straw purchase, and illegal.
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I recall being told the same thing when I started at the gunshop, along with this statement:

Transferring a firearm to a person who is unwilling or unable to pass a NICS check is a straw sale.
 
Hmm...I'm wondering about this, as my sister (who would pass a background check without a problem) wants to get a gun, but lives several hours away from me. If I see one that she's told me she wants in a store down where I live, buy it, and then give it to her for the purchase price, does that mean I've made a straw purchase?
 
Tribal, it sure does, because when on the form they ask if you are actual purchaser, you would be lying when you say "yes." The gun is for her, and it's "her" money as she's already agreed beforehand that she's paying for it - just going to pay you back. This would be a straw purchase.

I bought two guns from dealers last year as gifts. That's no problem. I paid, they received them - no cash changed hands (except me to dealer). The dealers knew it was for a gift, I discussed it with them ("Wonder if he'll like that. Hmm, his hand is different, let me think about the other Ruger..."). This is not a problem. If they were to have re-imbursed me for the cost, that would be illegal.

Another way to go about it is just get her a used one in a private transaction. Then there's no form 4473 and no lie.

What's the risk in your case? Near Zero. Why not just do it - it's still the law, so don't. Put it on lay-away and wait for her to come to town and pick it up together with her doing the check, or buy used.
 
1. A gift is not a straw purchase.

2. A straw purchase for federal purposes is when a buyer lies on the form 4473. The form asks if you are the true purchaser. If you are buying the gun as a gift, you are the true purchaser.

3. If you are buying the gun with intention of reselling it, you are acting as a dealer, which is illegal without a license.

4. If you are buying the gun, and say you are the true purchaser, and are not, that is a straw purchase. You have just committed perjury. Ask Martha Stewart or Scooter Libby about federal perjury charges.

5. It doesn't matter whether the transferee is a prohibited person or not.

6. It is also illegal to knowingly transfer a gun to someone who is prohibited, but that is a seperate offense.

7. You can read the law for yourself: 18 U.S.C. 922.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/922.html

8. Tribal: yes, that's a straw purchase. In addition, if she lives in another state it is illegal to make a private sale across state lines. Have her call the firearms dealer, buy the gun, and have it transferred to a dealer near her.
 
What about buying a handgun for a son/daughter between the ages of 18 and 21? Is that an illegal straw purchase?

Now I understand that if I buy my son a Ruger Mark II and give it to him as a gift, that's no problem, however what about if he wanted to buy a Mark II himself and gave me the money for the gun and I bought it for him. The gun is still under my roof but what if my son possesed it say in his room? Is that an illegal straw purchase?

I have often wondered about that angle. I have an 18 year old son who has expressed an interest in maybe getting a handgun but I don't want to break the law.
 
I believe that is still illegal. There isn't a "family member" clause.

However, it's not illegal for him to buy a handgun in most states - just has to be over 18. Just can't get it from an FFL (weird, huh?). So again, as long as your state has no restrictions greater than the federal ones, he can buy used from another private party, but not used/new from a Dealer.

You best solution is to give it go private, or give it to him as a graduation/birthday/Hanukkah gift if you want to buy new.
 
I suspect that a large number of "straw purchases" are actually innocent purchases, such as the situation Tribal described. Guy sees a rare gun that a friend or relative is looking for. Once in a lifetime purchase maybe. Friend or relative is way to far away to buy it before it's gone. So the guy buys it and passes it on to the friend or relative who wanted it for what he paid.

Or how about a case when a guy can get a discount on something but his friend can't. He buys two at the discount and turns one over to his friend (a legal possesor who owns other guns) for the purchase price.

Or how about the case bobotech describes. Kid wants a gun for hunting or target practice. Parent wants them to learn about saving money and the pride in ownership that comes with wisely using the money you worked hard for. Kid saves, parent buys.

I could go on and on. All cases are illegal. None are wrong. This is the problem with a) background checks; and b) zero-tolerance laws. Makes a law-abiding person a criminal for carrying out an morally innocent action.


-T.
 
I could go on and on. All cases are illegal. None are wrong. This is the problem with a) background checks; and b) zero-tolerance laws. Makes a law-abiding person a criminal for carrying out an morally innocent action.
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Amen on that. Nothing described in this thread is ethically wrong. Just illegal. makes you wonder who rights these rules and if they think, doesn't it?
 
Actually, I don't think that buying a gun that you know someone wants, and then selling it to him is necessarily illegal. As long as the other party does not specifically tell you he wants you to buy that gun, you ARE the purchaser, and are merely reselling the gun at a later date.

There is no law that I am aware of that requires a person to own a firearm for a set period of time before reselling it. I also do not see that this makes you a dealer, especially if it is a one time event.

For example: As a firefighter, Glock offers a program where I can purchase a Glock 19 for $400. Seeing what a bargain that is, I purchase one for my father who I happen to know wants a new pistol.

I bring it to his house and ask if he is interested. Assuming no other issues that would exclude the legality of the purchase, I do not see where it is against the law, unless he specifically asked that I buy it for him for a price.
 
Usually threads involving questions about how to break the law are locked. It's not high road.
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Nobody is trying to break any laws here. This is just a discussion of the law for the sake of education. An academic discussion more or less.

I don't see how this is not high road?

Some great info so far. It's really interesting.
 
If you "know" they want the gun and are buying with the idea of reselling it?

18 USC 922 (a) (1) (A)

"It shall be unlawful for any person except... a licensed dealer to engage in the business of ... dealing in firearms..."

All I can tell you is that if you buy the gun with the intention of reselling it, you are probably dealing in firearms. I can't put it any plainer than that. Now, federal courts have disagreed about what "dealing" means - do you have to make a profit, how much time and energy, etc. Here is an appeals court decision:

http://bulk.resource.org/courts.gov/c/F2/521/521.F2d.1255.74-1806.html

You should not want to be a test case.

It is very dangerous to apply common sense to federal laws.

They are usually applied quite literally and with no sense of proportion or fairness. Your idea of what is "ridiculous" may not be shared by a prosecutor.

And bear in mind, when will this come up?

Probably in this context: the person you sell the gun to may have used it in a crime, or sold it or given it to someone who did, or perhaps it was stolen from them and used in a crime. The prosecutor will be looking around for someone to blame, and there you are, with all your acts documented and easy to prove.

And let me also point out that in such a prosecution the government will find all your internet posts through your ISP, including the ones that show you were concerned enough to ask if your actions were legal.
 
What about buying a handgun for a son/daughter between the ages of 18 and 21? Is that an illegal straw purchase?

Now I understand that if I buy my son a Ruger Mark II and give it to him as a gift, that's no problem, however what about if he wanted to buy a Mark II himself and gave me the money for the gun and I bought it for him. The gun is still under my roof but what if my son possesed it say in his room? Is that an illegal straw purchase?
Click to expand...
Straw purchase.

He is prohibited from making the purchase himself. He gave you the money to buy it for him because he can't buy it himself.

Why is there even any question about this? If you buy it and give it to him (and it isn't illegal for an 18-year old to possess a firearm in your state, it's okay. A gift is a gift. If he provides the money ... it ain't a gift.
 
couple years ago a coworker went to walmart to buy his son a 20 ga for his first year deerhunting soon as he told them it was for his son they refused to sell it to him even though he had his 12yr old son standing next to him.
anybody else run into this type of problem?
 
cheese said:
What if it is for example, a husband getting his wife a gift, and doesn't realize his wife had a felony conviction before he met her and never got clemency?
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Not to skirt your question, but that would seem like a sad state of affairs in a lot of ways... People seem to jump into marriages too quickly these days (without really knowing their spouse-to-be).

So, while this sounds far-fetched, I guess maybe it isn't.
 
People seem to jump into marriages too quickly these days (without really knowing their spouse-to-be).
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which unfortunately makes anything possible.

I'm not married, so the scenario was purely theoretical.
 
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