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Student Protest Gun Ban for Campus

Discussion in 'Legal' started by El Tejon, Apr 23, 2008.

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  1. El Tejon

    El Tejon Member

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    From the Journal & Courier, Lafayette, Indiana: news from the nationwide campus gun ban protest. Got to love the moronic comments from the former State Policeman. How to tell the difference? Well, gee, how do your highly trained officers tell the difference in the grocery store, movie theater, sidewalk, etc., Johnny?:rolleyes:

    It is as if someone gave him a script to read and he read it without thinking.

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    http://www.jconline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080423/NEWS05/804230355

    Students protest concealed weapons laws
    By ERIC WEDDLE • eweddle@journalandcourier.com • April 23, 2008

    If Chris Jewell carried a gun on the Ivy Tech Community College Lafayette campus, it would be a .40 caliber Smith & Wesson.

    "My shirt covers it when holstered," he said. "You never know it is there unless, God forbid, it had to be used."

    Jewell, a criminal justice sophomore, is part of a 28,500-member national organization called Students for Concealed Carry on Campus. This week members are wearing empty gun holsters to class at 125 colleges, including Ivy Tech, in an attempt to draw attention to university policies and state laws that prevent licensed gun owners from being armed on campus.

    Indiana law grants Ivy Tech and Purdue University the power to prohibit guns from their property -- a policy that neither school plans to change, according to each school's spokesman. While about 15 Ivy Tech students are actively taking part in this week's protest, not all students want that policy to change.

    "I think it is unneeded and could cause potential liability," Gabriel Valtierra, an Ivy Tech sophomore, said. "I wouldn't feel safe knowing that other people have guns on campus."

    Valtierra said he and other friends have a comfortable sense of safety at campus, but it would be upset of students could carry guns.

    Reassuring students that concealed carry would increase safety and not be a distraction is what Jewell wants to accomplish this week.

    "This is an education-based goal, to share with people what the policies are and that everyone has the right to self-defense," he said.

    An off-duty, armed Lafayette Police Department officer patrols Ivy Tech most of the day every day, along with unarmed security officers, said Tom McCool, campus spokesman.

    John Mishler, an Ivy Tech criminal justice instructor and retired 34-year Indiana State Police officer, sees many sides to the issue.

    "As a citizen, I want that right," he said. "But as an instructor or law enforcement officer, I have a problem with people carrying guns."

    If anyone could carry a firearm on campus, Mishler said, how would police separate legally licensed students from an assailant?

    But Andrew Lowe, a Purdue University senior, favors licensed students having the choice to carry, especially after shootings at Northern Illinois University and Virginia Tech.

    "One, I do have the right," he said. "Second, it is really the only effective means of protecting yourself on campus. The police can't. In the recent campus shootings the police arrived after the shootings were over."

    As part of the protest, Joaquin Orozco, an Ivy Tech freshman, wore a black holster Tuesday reserved for his Glock 22 when he is not in class or work.

    "You can't secure everything and everyone," he said. "But I want to secure myself. It is my right, and I want that extra security."

    In Indiana, people over 18 can apply for a permit to carry a handgun, said Gloria Andrews, Tippecanoe County Sheriff's Department's firearms clerk. They must be 21 to purchase the gun, however.

    A four-year permit costs $40, and a lifetime permit is $125 if the applicant passes a background check, she said.
     
  2. ZeSpectre

    ZeSpectre Member

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    Translation: I'm couldn't trust myself with a gun on campus so I'm going to project that fear onto everyone else.

    There's an old joke...
    A-"What's the difference between an egg and an elephant?"
    B-"Ummm, I don't know."
    A-"Well then, I guess I'm not sending you to the store for a dozen eggs!"
     
  3. Geno
    • Contributing Member

    Geno Member

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    Don't forget the professors who participate too. I have been wearing my CCW vest on-going for over a year now. I am amazed at how often people come up to me and ask "Where did you buy that vest?! I like that!"

    I always take the time to explain that it is a CCW vest. With that I get mixed reactions, and those who express anything negative, I take the opportunity to educate them about the legality versus Constitutionality of CCW. I end it with, "When seconds count, the police are minutes away."

    To date only one “anti” has dared take me to task regarding carry. That was in one my research classes (prior to the class beginning). When I asked the student for, "…the research statistics and a reference to substantiate the position…", the opposition ended, but I continued to educate him as to his errant way. I looked at the student and responded,

    "Exactly...affirmation bias! What you fail to understand is that Campus Insecurity will not protect you...I know that to be fact! Campus Security stood by two years ago and allowed a local gang to beat a student in the head with a tire iron. The gang then left, but returned 15 minutes later, entered the student housing (the student's dorm room), dragged the student back out into the parking lot and beat him a again. Campus Insecurity stood there, watching for a total of two separate beating of the same student, for over 45 minutes duration and did nothing!!! The police (DPS) never arrived until over 90 minutes later!!! Now how safe do you feel?!"

    As a matter of reference, the student was beaten survived, but sustained a "severe TBI" (traumatic brain injury) and was forced to drop from college for lack of any remaining cognitive ability. I know, I'm preaching to the choir.

    Edit to add. I have noted one cocnsistent fact. The "antis" are quite frequently unprepared for a factual debate about CCW. They can assert bias, but when pressed for factual debate, they fall apart. Be prepared. Be "armed" with facts, and take them to task.
     
  4. ZeSpectre

    ZeSpectre Member

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    And then -quite often- they get angry and the cursing starts <sigh>.

    I don't think I'll ever forget a situation a while back at a political lobby where an anti approached me (I was open carrying at the time for the purposes of the lobby event) and started haranguing me mercilessly about my "evil gun". Another guy walks up and looks at her and looks at me and says "hey now let me get this straight, you say you are worried about the self control of people with guns but you are getting in this ARMED guy's face and giving him a hard time for just standing here? I don't know if you have a lot of courage or are just really stupid."

    Wow, she about peeled the paint off the wall with her language/anger after that.
     
  5. Dick1911

    Dick1911 Member

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    That's usually the case when they cannot respond with logic or fact - the name calling and accusation that you have no feelings. After all, what do the facts have to do with feelings? Many just want to feel good or feel like they did something even if it was useless. :rolleyes:
     
  6. Old Fuff

    Old Fuff Member

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    Oh I am so glad that these students have a "confortable sense of safety," and I wouldn't want them to get upset, but I wonder how they cope when they leave their secure campus and go out into the real world?

    It also occures to me that some of the students that died at Virginia Tech felt the same way until their last moments when they discovered too late that there are some people in this world who are not warm and fuzzy, and don't pay any attention to the "No Guns" sign on the door. :banghead:
     
  7. The Wiry Irishman

    The Wiry Irishman Member

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    I wish the author would have added more from the conversation we had, or at least included the references and citations I included with everything I said. The reporter seemed like a decent guy, though. No sign of bias in either direction throughout a 20+ minute conversation.

    (It's my name that's bolded in El Tejon's post)
     
  8. Frog48

    Frog48 Member

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    Unarmed security? Haha right, like the little old man in the golf cart will be of any help, should an incident go down...
     
  9. Euclidean

    Euclidean Member

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    So as long as he has that right, who cares if anyone else does?
     
  10. VARifleman

    VARifleman Member

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    From my school paper yesterday...

    http://www.technicianonline.com/med.../News/Group.Protests.Gun.Contol-3342583.shtml

     
  11. Robert Hairless

    Robert Hairless Member

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    Mr. Mishler needs to pay attention. The basic issue isn't whether "anyone could carry a firearm on campus." It is about why responsible people, legally licensed by the state to carry concealed weapons, are not allowed to do that on campus.

    There is another issue that has emerged. That issue is why law enforcement officers and their instructors are unable to distinguish between good and bad people unless the bad people are carrying firearms.

    This issue is vital because criminals do not always carry firearms while raping, assaulting, or murdering good people. Since instructors like Mr. Mishler are unable to teach criminal justice students at Ivy Tech how to identify criminals unless they are carrying firearms, there's no real value to either Mr. Mishler or his students and the Ivy Tech program is a sham.

    Related to that vital issue is the question of why Mr. Mishler, his students, and the administration of Ivy Tech are unable to work with students instead of against them. It should be an easy matter for campus police to coordinate simple recognition signals and other ways to identify CWP holders in a crisis.

    As for the other students on campus, perhaps they could wear jackets with "Please Don't Shoot Me" or "Innocent Person Here" printed in big, white letters on back so that Mr. Mishler and his students don't mistake them for criminals and shoot them.

    At Virginia Tech, by the way, its enlightened president and administration awarded a degree to each of the thirty murdered students. This is something for all institutions of higher education to adopt--a posthumous degree awarded victims of the institution's administrative incompetence and the failure of its legislative oversight.

    I don't know how much value there is in such a degree but it does make people feel good.
     
  12. Henry Bowman

    Henry Bowman Senior Member

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    I assume he said "oppose."



    So, if there is a shooting, the last person you are going to call is a person with a gun (cop), right? :rolleyes: Anyway, a "shootout" implies that someone is shooting back.
     
  13. Robert Hairless

    Robert Hairless Member

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    Oh darn. I don't see how anyone can justify allowing other people to carry the means to defend their lives when it makes Christina Kennedy "feel less safe."

    Christina is a junior now so she has just another academic year to go. Maybe people with concealed weapons permits won't mind risking their lives until Christina graduates and can feel safe somewhere else?

    Of course if Christina Kennedy goes on to graduate school and wants to feel safe there too, you guys will just have to die as necessary. The world pivots on Christina Kennedy as its axis. Her mommy and daddy probably told her so.

    When I was young my mommy and daddy told me that I was not the center of the universe. Ah, if they only knew then what parents of today know about raising children.
     
  14. The Wiry Irishman

    The Wiry Irishman Member

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    When I was being interviewed, he asked me if it was possible to completely conceal a gun, since several students he interviewed said seeing someone with a gun in class would make them uncomfortable.

    I replied that yes, its very easy to conceal a pistol, but how it makes people feel is irrelevant. Their rights are not being infringed and facts and statistics clearly illustrate that they are not in danger from a licensed, armed individual. Potential emotional discomfort is not a reasonable basis for any sort of policy or legal action.
     
  15. VARifleman

    VARifleman Member

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    It's a misquote by the writer, actually. The full quote is along the lines of "impose a ban on people lawfully carrying firearms."
     
  16. Robert Hairless

    Robert Hairless Member

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    Well said.
     
  17. divemedic

    divemedic Member

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    Kennedy went on to say, "Because it is much safer if no one shoots back. Look at Virginia Tech, with only one person shooting, they had so many killed. If people were shooting back, who knows how many people would have been caught in the crossfire. Anyway, I gotta go to the mall and buy some more Che shirts and some Birkenstocks, so TTFN."
     
  18. Old Fuff

    Old Fuff Member

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    I can see the logic in this. :rolleyes:

    We need new regulations in out colleges and universities. I mean that shooting back at a killer would create a deadly crossfire and more bullets mean more killing, just like more guns will certainly result in the same thing. Ever since this concealed weapons licensing thing got started blood has been running in the streets. It’s just not safe to go out without your Teddy Bear.

    I propose that we disarm everybody, including the campus police. That way nobody would shoot off guns, and there would only be one shooter. Clearly, fewer bullets would be flying around and fewer people would be injured or killed.

    Including the killer. The very thought makes me feel even more warm and fuzzy, and it might get to the point where I could leave Teddy home. :D
     
  19. Pilgrim

    Pilgrim Member

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    By their behavior, followed by asking politely those who do not seem to be an immediate threat.

    Pilgrim
     
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