Students expelled for touching a BB GUN

[Big Boomer]

It's been posted on here before, but some of the most violent places (prisons) have total and complete control of everything. The more you push the harder they push back (within reason).

Think of this as mini rebellions. We we (rebels) were pushed to hard we revolted and overthrew our tyrannical government.

Those of us that grew up with guns in school and more of a "relaxed" atmosphere had far fewer problems.

Sure we drank, got in fights, drove recklessly, and even smoked a cig or two at school a few times. No one went on a rampage, unless you consider getting into a fight for taking someones "girl".

I carried a shotgun in the rack and a pistol behind the seat. The teachers knew and no one cared. It was not a threat. If you got into a fight you used your fists, if you got beat you learned to fight better. Boys with raging testosterone have to have an outlet somewhere.

When you can all these things up you are basically capping an eruption, the longer it stews the bigger it will be. Go back to the basics, as we get older our cognitive processes refine and we understand logic. When we are younger it's still being developed. Harsh laws only drive resistance and hatred.

We are animals, albeit at the top of the food chain, but animals nonetheless. When you cage and torture and animal it will do two things, either succumb to it's fate or it will try to revolt and kill you.

What we are seeing is a refinement of these to basic emotions. Anyone remember fight or flight? I'm not saying lets go to anarchy here but this totalitarian regime they are building in our schools WILL be the downfall of our society in the next 20-30 years. As these students grow to have children of their own and start to control government we will all be doomed. We will end up making the UK and other places like with similar societies look like the heaven. This is sad but so very true. Where we will be going in the next few decades will be an important step in our countries evolution.

They say that our governmental structure should not have lasted for over 200 years. I think that sadly enough our time is just about up.

I hope I die and go to the happy hunting grounds an old man before it all comes crashing down.

 

[Tim the Enchanter]

Those of us that grew up with guns in school and more of a "relaxed" atmosphere had far fewer problems

I brought a deactivated claymore to school once and showed it off to my friends. A teacher saw it and wondered what it was, I explained and nothing became of it, other than him telling me to put it back into my backpack.

My brother is now at a similar age, and a kid at his middle school was suspended for drawing a picture of a pistol.

 

[akodo]

The Tourist writes

I got caught dead-bang over the limit in a poorly marked area. Unfair? You bet. But it was legal.

I explained this politely to the officer who wrote the ticket and I was given information on how to challenge the ticket.

I went to court, got some of my points back and received the lowest possible fine under that section of the law.

This episode with the BB gun is very similar. If the families feel the code and the punishment are unfair, then there is an entire section of redress, family courts and appeals that are available to them.

First off, school policy is school policy, it is not THE LAW. It was not constructed by the legislative branch and signed by the executive. It was concocted by some school administrator.

And no, it cannot be redressed in the family courts, because no charges are brought by the family courts. The family courts or any courts have no say and are not involved in any way in this manner.

Well, the courts can be involved if the parents bring a civil suit against the school arguing their children are being overzealously punished and theirfore denied their basic rights to public education, or claim that their children are being overzealusly punished due to race or socioeconomic reasons.

 

[makarovnik]

Does this mean they are now immune to truancy laws or do they need to try and find another school to attend in a different district?

 

[The Tourist]

Well, the courts can be involved if the parents bring a civil suit against the school

This is the crux of my point. You always have the option of seeking redress. Anyone can sue anybody at any time for any thing. And taken far enough in the system, the parents could get the punishments set aside, and perhaps recover their court costs.

And frankly, that's the best way. This "he said, she said" thing is popular in forums, but in a real sense it does little in the lives of the children and their education. And truth be told, I'm a tad tired of this whiny crap about "the rules don't apply to me." In fact, I'm waiting for the race card to be played as an excuse for some preferential treatment or ignorance of their culture.

It's a very ridiculous dichotomy we profess. We want freedom, hard work, excellence, accountability and respect for The Constitution--that is, unless the law and rules apply to us. Then all of a sudden we have the draconian jackboot of tyranny on our necks. Now, if our neighbor did the same behavior, we'd want the sluggard hung by the yardarm as a lesson to the others.

You want to run your mouth as full tilt one minute, and then you want my straight pipes silenced in another. You want the freedom to carry a gun anywhere, but you demand that I wear a helmet to hold down your insurance costs. It's freedom of speech, that is, until you hear something you don't like.

Well, the kids broke the law. There's the courthouse.

 

[jenrob]

I was in the second grade in a VERY small rural school first thru eighth grades in 1953 ok a VERY long time ago and me and several of my "buddies" wore double holster Mattel cap shooters to school so we could play "Cowboys" at recess. The only trouble we got into was when a "cap" went off and the offender would have to stand in a corner for a while!!

I had a H&R 9 shot 22 in my junior HS year and carried it "concelled" to school one time. My Vo-Ag teacher saw it, removed me from class, asked me for the pistol, gave it to him, he gave it back to me after class and told me NOT to bring it to school again!!! It had 9 loaded 22LR's in it!!! DUMB, I know now.
Still a small HS in rural area----Shotguns and rifles in gun rack in back window of Dad's pickup on school parking lot---1965 & 1966
Guns were "probably" loaded and truck NOT locked NEVER EVER A PROBLEM

That was when it was still legal to beat some sense into your kids. Now you get looks just pointing a finger at them.

We always had guns in the back window of the truck at school windows down. No worries. But at that time a stanger could tan your hide and you didn't tell mam or dad for fear of getting your hide tanned again.

And what about drugs, alcohol, prohibited literature, or inflammatory propaganda? Or what about anthrax, ray guns, porno movies, stolen cars, fake drivers licenses,

Half of the teachers bring there own drugs, never know what car in a school parking lot is stolen or will be stolen by the end of the next class. And how do you think all those kids are alcohol, fake drivers licenses.

 

[loop]

My Kindergartener shot a 94 out of 100 on a 10-yard target last week. If he touched a BB gun he knew what he was doing.

Who do these people think they are to judge all children my their standards?

If my son touched a BB gun while under the supervision of school personnel - um, guess who screwed up?

It isn't my boy!

 

[BlackBearME]

Having said that, I still cannot carry a firearm into The Post Office, it's against the law.

Now, I am no more likely to shoot up a Post Office as I would a public street, a grocery store or book club. That doesn't matter. A Post Office is a "no guns" zone.

You might not like it, but you will be arrested. Same deal here.

You're right. It was against the law (rules, in this case) and they deserve the punishment. I'm glad that you fessed up - Cowboyed up? - and took the punishment you deserved. Not enough people willing to accept responsibility.

But, what if you got caught going 5 over the speed limit, and were thrown in prison for seven years? Would you be happy then? Or would you consider the punishment just?

 

[BlackBearME]

Also:
The satire bug bit me, so I composed a little email;

To: [email protected] (Prinicipal of the school involved)
CC: [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected] (Board Members)
Would have sent to the Super, but his email is strangely lacking.
Subject: Suspension for touching a gun - bravo!
Greetings,

I saw the article detailing how the three students were barred from the school. I just wanted to applaud you on your efforts to ensure a gun free school zone, and that these children are getting the proper education they deserve. After all, they can't know right from wrong. That's what upstanding citizens such as yourselves are for. In this day of children run amok and families falling apart, it is a relief to know there are still people out there fighting the good fight. It would be reprehensible if these children were allowed to think that guns were simply inanimate objects whose ultimate use depends entirely on the person holding it. No, this is unacceptable. The proper course of action here is indoctrination, to let them know early and often that guns are evil.

I have here another example of this improper action, which I hope you can do something about. Please continue down the path of righteousness, and keep fighting the good fight.
:http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v495/Hkmp5sd/s-allpink.jpg?t=1188551059

Sincerely,
[BlackBearME]



My only concern is I didn't want to give it away, so i didn't lay it on too thick. I'm thinking if they don't view the image, they might think I was being serious. Ah well, if they do one of them will likely reply, and I'll set 'em straight.

 

[Owens]

Doc2005's 3 points come to mind:
1. Is it a weapon? (yes...sort of?)
2. Brought knowingly? (yes)
3. Harm intended? (hard to say)

The third point is where the crux gets in on this. Was there an intent of doing harm. If not, then no zero tolerance violation.

Did they break the rules, yes. Are they law, no.

Is the puishment a bit extreme, absolutely.

According to the report, 1 brought, 2 only touched.
What lesson did the 2 that touched have poured on them.

Sad.

Hope this works out for the better.

 

[Old Fuff]

Obviously this school system isn't very worried about these 3 boys getting an education, but these days public schools don't seem to be as much concerned about education as they are political correctness and zero tolerance - especially if guns are involved in any form or in any kind of representation; be it a firearm, bb-gun, t-shirt or even a drawing.

I hope the parents of these students can find a better school. The one they were in isn't worth zip.

 

[The Tourist]

But, what if you got caught going 5 over the speed limit, and were thrown in prison for seven years? Would you be happy then? Or would you consider the punishment just?

Of course not. But as I have said three times already, you have redress and an appeals process. Even a guy guilty of mass murder sitting on death row has legal options.

Actually, we're not even discussing quilt here. They did the deed. Heck, if they were smoking in the boys' room they'd have drawn some form of punishment. It doesn't sound like anyone is denying the act, they're just kvetching about the fall-out.

"Don't do the crime if you can't do the time."--Beretta (Or Berett'a parrot. The 1970's are a blur.)

 

[ADKWOODSMAN]

As stated by Wes Jamson
The goal isn't indoctrination, it's safety and control. Administrators have to balance the demands of hyper-vigilant safety-nazi parents, and the lack of resources to interact with students on a personal level. I recall an instance in middle school where students began playing trading card games. This became popular, and as it did so, the number of incidents of stolen/lost/disputed cards rose. As a result, instead of applying personal discretion and judgment to each case, the administration decided to institute a total ban on all forms of playing cards. After a few months, the popularity of the cards declined, and they were tacitly allowed back into the school.

The moral is, schools adopt draconian policies precisely so they don't need to micromanage, investigate, weigh competing interests, and make judgment calls. Rule says X merits punishment Y. Kid does X. Kid receives punishment Y. It's that simple. Were class sizes and schools much smaller, and administration dedicated to the goal of educating students rather than cranking them through corrupt or idiotic state-mandated programs, then things might be different. Instead, all things interact to leave us with the present conditions.

As a retired teacher it sickens me as the where we are will all this now.
But, the parents want safety and the schools as so PC

Kids used to bring guns to my school and we would let them store them in the first floor fire escape. Only we (teachers had access)

I used to teach NY Sportsman Education before school in the a.m. with a broken .22 rifle. I even used to teach the Trapper Training classes before school and we would skin animals in my class room.

This was in the '70 and '80.

Much more relaxed times!

 

[230RN]

I think expulsion is a bit much too, but they could just be making an example.

Better example: summary execution.

This kind of stuff is getting stupider by the minute. Might as well make it perfectly stupid.

 

[czdavid]

I'm curious: how many parents of children still in school do we have on here that are also members of PTA's?

I think so often we get too wrapped up in the injustice of it all and forget that there may be some avenues of change. I would venture to say that there are principals and teachers across America that don't like the punishments handed down for situations like this. What would happen if the parents who are so outraged by incidents like this began to speak out? We get so up-in-arms (no pun intended) about these types of things, yet they still happen. Why? Maybe because no one is willing to do anything about them.

I am an education major in college and I am really looking forward to someday standing in front of a classroom full of kids. I know that my biggest allies won't necessarily come from the administration. My biggest allies will come from the home. Why not speak out/show displeasure not only on this forum, but also in PTA meetings or some other avenue?

 

[Cosmoline]

That doesn't apply here by a long shot. In these kids entire lives there has been "no weapons" policies, metal detectors and even on-site police officers.

And in my entire life at school there was a policy that you had to attend mandatory assemblies. I virtually never did, because they ranged from horrific to innane. If my punishment had been expulsion, that would have been the end of my education, or at least my progress would have thrown it into serious disarray. Instead of getting my act together with the help of prodding and "talking to's" I got from concerned teachers, I would have been cast out. I most likely would have continued down the dark path. If you treat children like prisoners, they will start thinking like criminals.

And frankly, that's the best way.

??? The BEST WAY is to expel kids for TOUCHING A BB GUN and BRING IN THE LAWYERS? I *am* a lawyer and I think that's a profoundly stupid idea. Until very recent times these kind of problems were addressed with a technique known as COMMON SENSE. It worked pretty well, and nobody had to get lawyered up or expelled. The idea of a "lawyer for children" was literally a comic strip. Now there are many of my peers working in this new field, simply because the fools who administer our public education system no longer use the grey matter the good Lord gave them. Heaven help us. Home schooling or private schools are looking better all the time.

 

[The Tourist]

As a retired teacher

My wife is still a teacher. She has one more year after this one for retirement, and she cannot wait.

We live in an upwardly mobile section of a bedroom community. Nobody starving out here.

Having said that, we are experiencing gang banging, guns, knives, drugs, sexual attacks--my wife got bitten in this summer school and had a chair thrown at her last year--and this was the first year our SWAT team held a "code black" exercize in a middle school.

She believes that teaching them is now a losing proposition. Heck, she believes that simply controlling them is probably a better and more realistic goal.

Now lets make a ridiculous--but true--comparison on how upside down this condition really gets. As you might assume, periodically bikers gets tossed in the pokey for a myriad of offenses. You might classify my group as a bunch of good ol' boys, not really the hardened type, but you wouldn't want to push them either. And we swap war stories.

My wife, as a teacher, can relate more serious offenses of crime and violence at a middle school than bikers can--including the ones that draw 'time.'

Upwardly mobile.

You know what happened after she was bitten--during a speech therapy session, with a child she knew, in the parents' home?

Nothing. No charges. Not even a card or call of apology. She had to fight the school system for funds to cover her down time, her wages, and her HIV and heptitis tests.

What do you want to do with the kids and the BB gun? Make them clean erasers?

Repeat my premise--upwardly mobile.

 

[Greell]

wow

it amazes me the things you can get in trouble for these days.

one poster was right, you can just as easily touch scissors which can kill someone at school too. going to expell someone for that also?

in fact, you can kill someone with a damn frozen pancake if you wanted to. just about anything can be used as a weapon in the right hands, but to expell students, and deprive them of their education for physically touching a BB gun, is ridiculous to say the least.

 

[The Tourist]

deprive them of their education

No one, no one, no one, is depriving them of an education. In the majority of places in the USA an education is the law. You can even home school or get an education in prison. We even educate foreign nationals here illegally.

What was done was expulsion. That school didn't want them there anymore. And that's a reasonable action. In most cases, that's the only option allowed by a school.

 

[Dravur]

I remember

walking through the halls with a .22 rifle and putting it into my locker. The principal knew it was there and I showed it to friends. This was in Montana however.

Montana, where you are given a gun at birth.

 

[fatguynlittlecoat]

There was a kid at my private school who got expelled for having a tiny little old timer pocket knife...this was back in middle school...

Oh and by the way mr. walker, I was the one who wrote F$% in the boys bathroom with a permanent black marker in giant letters junior year of highschool! Watcha gonna do about it now!

 

[MakAttak]

What was done was expulsion. That school didn't want them there anymore. And that's a reasonable action. In most cases, that's the only option allowed by a school.

Too bad the rest of us don't have the same option with the schools.

Oh, yes, we can reject them, but we are still forced to hand over our money.

 

[Intune]

What do you want to do with the kids and the BB gun? Make them clean erasers?

No, like you, I want them drawn, quartered & expelled from school. 'Cause that's the rules. Now, the gangbanginggunweildingknifeninjadrugdealingsexualdeviants who bit your soontoretireteachinglosingpropositionjustcontrolbratswarstories wife and threw a chair at her deserve our sympathy & understanding because even the "upwardly mobile section of a bedroom community" has some issues and this is reflected in the punishment meted out.

She got bit & battered. Could you imagine the trauma of knowing that two of her students TOUCHED a BB gun? I know you're with me on this one 'cause

That school didn't want them there anymore. And that's a reasonable action

you are obviously a very reasonable gentleman.

 

[The Tourist]

Fair enough. What would you do?

 

[Intune]

Fair enough. What would you do?

See above! No, seriously... Just switch the punishments. Um, and maybe remove the drawn & quartered part.