1KPerDay
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is it legal?
stupid question of the week: can you use two hands in Bullseye competition?
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243winxb
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From rule book.
OP
OP
1KPerDay
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So.... yes... and no? yes in probationary but one hand only if you want to shoot expert?
Varminterror
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The One or Two Hand Probationary Match was added in 2013 to encourage participation, but I have never seen one fired. I've shot Bullseye off and on since the late 1990's. You can be classified up to Expert by participating in the kiddie matches, but after which point your ride is over until you start shooting one handed. I do assume, but do not know it to be true, the classification will be sustained when you muscle up and start firing one handed like the sport is intended.
What I read out of the rules, since I haven't actually seen one fired - if an event is offering the One or Two Hand Probationary Match, then you could effectively earn a "participation ribbon" for shooting in a "special match" for two handers. It's NOT a match shooting for score against the standard NRA Conventional Pistol --> Now called Precision Pistol <-- aka "Bullseye" matches. Same course of fire, but not the same competition field.
Why not just learn to shoot one handed and compete with the rest of the group? I think you'll learn quickly, firing Bullseye one handed really isn't a huge disadvantage...
What I read out of the rules, since I haven't actually seen one fired - if an event is offering the One or Two Hand Probationary Match, then you could effectively earn a "participation ribbon" for shooting in a "special match" for two handers. It's NOT a match shooting for score against the standard NRA Conventional Pistol --> Now called Precision Pistol <-- aka "Bullseye" matches. Same course of fire, but not the same competition field.
Why not just learn to shoot one handed and compete with the rest of the group? I think you'll learn quickly, firing Bullseye one handed really isn't a huge disadvantage...
OP
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1KPerDay
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Primarily because of all the disciplines I've investigated, bullseye shooters have come across as the most unwelcoming and curmudgeonly and insulting to newcomers and those who shoot other disciplines. Perhaps I've just been unlucky.
I got interested in bullseye many years ago and attended a few matches. Did pretty well, but one of the main reasons I quit was catching some flak from other shooters because I wasn't using the gun they thought I should be, even though what I was shooting was legal per the rules.
lonegunman
Member
You have been going to the wrong bullseye matches. I have brought extra guns and donated ammunition to anyone who wants to shoot an EIC match for the last fifteen years. You can shoot any legal gun, but like so many other shooting related sports, you are not going to win much with the wrong gun. More than a few people get a little hurt when they show up with their trusty Glock and do not shoot well at 50yds or when aiming is required along with a moderate amount of speed.
If you wanted to shoot an EIC match at a regional or state championship in Washington or Idaho most folks would even loan you their gun if you called ahead or emailed the match director.
OP
OP
1KPerDay
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That's the helpful attitude I've experienced in other disciplines and is what I would expect in bullseye also. Thanks for being the example of how it should be.
shootstraight57
Member
I don't know about now but when I was Bullseye shooting comp 20 years ago in Upstate N.Y. you could only use one hand. Things may have changed but that was the way it was then. Most of the larger caliber handguns were 45's because they made a bigger hole and that counts when close to the 10 ring! LOL
entropy
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Long a you keep it in your pocket........the classic stance.
Varminterror
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But you still want to start shooting Bullseye? And two handed no less? Not adding up for me.
Bullseye is a decidedly old school game, dying more and more every season. It's only natural many of the hold outs are elder "curmudgeonly" types, as "hold outs" always tend to be so.
Berger.Fan222
Member
I tend to think Bullseye would be a much more interesting sport and more relevant practice for other disciplines and practical pistol uses if two hands were widely allowed and not just an available option that is rarely or never implemented.
It's a free market, and shooters vote with their feet and their entry fees.
I prefer to view most target shooting as some kind of practice for some practical purpose of RKBA other than punching paper. The one handed nature of Bullseye kinda sinks it for me. There just are not many practical (RKBA) applications of pistol shooting where such an emphasis is placed on one hand shooting.
I've taught a bunch of people to shoot pistol. We start with the NRA Basic Pistol materials, work through the pistol marksmanship qualification program which includes a nice split between one handed and two handed work with both strong and weak hands. For students who want to go further, we have a look at Bullseye style one handed shooting, and we also have a look at the NRA marksmanship qualification programs in Defensive Pistol 1 and 2.
Without fail, students prefer to work on the Defensive Pistol side, which at some point generates interest in the action pistol disciplines (NRA Action Pistol, Steel Challenge, IDPA, etc.) It's not so much about the adrenaline of those competitions (many prefer private practice), it's about the fact that the defensive uses of pistols are seen as much more likely applications than holding a pistol in one hand and having to hit a small target at Bullseye distance. Allowing two hands would likely generate much greater interest. But that ship has likely sailed.
On the whole, I'mm happy to see growing numbers of shooters, whatever the discipline they fancy.
It's a free market, and shooters vote with their feet and their entry fees.
I prefer to view most target shooting as some kind of practice for some practical purpose of RKBA other than punching paper. The one handed nature of Bullseye kinda sinks it for me. There just are not many practical (RKBA) applications of pistol shooting where such an emphasis is placed on one hand shooting.
I've taught a bunch of people to shoot pistol. We start with the NRA Basic Pistol materials, work through the pistol marksmanship qualification program which includes a nice split between one handed and two handed work with both strong and weak hands. For students who want to go further, we have a look at Bullseye style one handed shooting, and we also have a look at the NRA marksmanship qualification programs in Defensive Pistol 1 and 2.
Without fail, students prefer to work on the Defensive Pistol side, which at some point generates interest in the action pistol disciplines (NRA Action Pistol, Steel Challenge, IDPA, etc.) It's not so much about the adrenaline of those competitions (many prefer private practice), it's about the fact that the defensive uses of pistols are seen as much more likely applications than holding a pistol in one hand and having to hit a small target at Bullseye distance. Allowing two hands would likely generate much greater interest. But that ship has likely sailed.
On the whole, I'mm happy to see growing numbers of shooters, whatever the discipline they fancy.
This has been my observation, though IMO, it's more accurate to say it's perceived as an old school game.
Regardless, they are at least partly responsible for their own decline, as their grumpiness turns off potential shooters at least as much as any relevance issue does, and I've told them as much. Nonetheless, I'd like to shoot bullseye someday. I'll just ignore the grumps.
Berger.Fan222
Member
This has been my observation, though IMO, it's more accurate to say it's perceived as an old school game.
Regardless, they are at least partly responsible for their own decline, as their grumpiness turns off potential shooters at least as much as any relevance issue does, and I've told them as much. Nonetheless, I'd like to shoot bullseye someday. I'll just ignore the grumps.
If I recall correctly, there are postal matches that you can shoot with friends (without the grumps) and just send in your scores. The NRA has some, and Net Competitor also organizes a number of them.
http://competitions.nra.org/nra-postal-matches.aspx
http://www.netcompetitor.com/monthly_matches.html
OP
OP
1KPerDay
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just asked a question
Acera
Member
If you start allowing two handed shooting, you are fundamentally changing the nature of the sport and moving it towards the more defensive games. That is why those games came about, people wanted something different and more 'practical'.
IIRC all Olympic pistol games are shot single handed.
The goal should not be to make it easier, but to maintain the challenge to be good at it.
Of course this will not sit well with the younger generation who wants to read up on it with the internet, then go master it in a single range session. If they can't, then it's not fair, too hard or they don't have the time to put into it to be good enough to compete.
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IIRC all Olympic pistol games are shot single handed.
The goal should not be to make it easier, but to maintain the challenge to be good at it.
Of course this will not sit well with the younger generation who wants to read up on it with the internet, then go master it in a single range session. If they can't, then it's not fair, too hard or they don't have the time to put into it to be good enough to compete.
.
Sunray
Member
"...flak from other shooters because I wasn't..." I can teach you some words to deal with that. None of 'em polite.
"...hold outs are elder "curmudgeonly"..." Nope. Although there are some clubs that are like that. Just like there are some IPSC/IDPA(absolutely nothing 'practical' about either one) clubs with members who want to be in charge but not actually shoot. See above. snicker. Any of the top IPSC players I know are also top Bullseye shooters. Bullseye is just another shooting game. Opens doors too.
"...come across as the most unwelcoming and curmudgeonly..." Go to another club. By far, most shooters will go out of their way to help a new shooter regardless of the discipline.
"...all Olympic pistol games are shot single handed..." Yep, but they've gone to air pistols only now. Too many countries don't allow their citizens to own real firearms.
"...hold outs are elder "curmudgeonly"..." Nope. Although there are some clubs that are like that. Just like there are some IPSC/IDPA(absolutely nothing 'practical' about either one) clubs with members who want to be in charge but not actually shoot. See above. snicker. Any of the top IPSC players I know are also top Bullseye shooters. Bullseye is just another shooting game. Opens doors too.
"...come across as the most unwelcoming and curmudgeonly..." Go to another club. By far, most shooters will go out of their way to help a new shooter regardless of the discipline.
"...all Olympic pistol games are shot single handed..." Yep, but they've gone to air pistols only now. Too many countries don't allow their citizens to own real firearms.
Varminterror
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This has been my observation, though IMO, it's more accurate to say it's perceived as an old school game.
Regardless, they are at least partly responsible for their own decline, as their grumpiness turns off potential shooters at least as much as any relevance issue does, and I've told them as much. Nonetheless, I'd like to shoot bullseye someday. I'll just ignore the grumps.
Completely agree - especially with that last part.
Don't let yourself get disenfranchised by a pretty simple reality. Shooting sports, of any kind, always have a stereotypic persona hanging over them which turns off new shooters - in 3 gun, it's the Billy Badass operator wanna be, in Bullseye, it's the crusty old curmudgeon, in Highpower it's the drab vanilla, coke bottle glassed 60yr old guy... But when you get out to any REAL competition, you're gonna find a lot more demographical disparity than the stereotype suggests.
Think of the group of people at a firearms competition to be more like the group at your day job, and less like the group of friends you hang out with after work. Social groups of friends become a group because they share a common set of beliefs or ideas, whereas coworkers become a group because they share a common JOB. Shooting competitors come together because they share a common competition. You WILL find friends, just like you find people at your job you really enjoy working with and might even count as friends, but just like in your day job, you'll find shooters with whom you really just don't get along (which is a nicer way of saying, you'll find some complete jerks). Or you might find a group of shooters in which YOU end up as the complete jerk...
Just go out and have fun. Nobody cares if you miss half of your shots on the 50yrd target at your first match - nobody is really good at Bullseye right out of the gate. The other shooters will help you improve faster than you ever would in trying to learn on your own. Learn some tricks at the matches, and take them back to your home range so when you come back next time. If they have a Probationary match, shoot in it, if they don't, muscle up and shoot one handed.
I say this lightheartedly, so please take it as such, but here are a few stereotypes you are likely to find at any given competition:
- The other new guys who are just learning the game and great to talk to
- The really good guys who are also good guys with lots of medals and trophies and will take their time to help you, loan you gear, whatever else you might need
- The new guys who are super NOT humble and have an excuse for why any stage didn't go well, which is always anything other than their fault
- "Gabby Abby" who will talk your ear off and is absolutely thrilled to be there, and thrilled that you're there, and thrilled there is there...
- The kids' soccer coach type who you might feel is trying to FORCE you under their wing, and will come find you after every stage to cram "improvement advice" into your ear... Which is great, most of the time, but it gets old fast...
- The uber competitive dude who winds himself up so tight he gets in the way of his actual skill - and is so self involved he's rarely distracted by others
- The dude who says he's just there to have fun and learn a bit, but then berates himself for every little mis-step in a stage
- The older dude who is legitimately there just to have fun
- The younger folks, even kids, who will be super humble and gracious, and then ABSOLUTELY SMOKE YOU ON EVERY STAGE
- The dude who has shot some OTHER type of competition, and continually talks about how this is just like that, OR how it's nothing like that...
- The guys who are really busy preparing everything and never have time to talk, then after, they talk about how they didn't do well because they were too worried trying to RO on other stages or wrangling targets or running scoresheets or whatever extra task they took on themselves
- That "chandler bing" type dude who says something which he either means to be glib, or which comes off as glib, at exactly the wrong moment for your mind set ALL OF THE TIME
- That really good shooter who is cordial, but seems pretty neutral towards you until you earn your stripes
- That middle of the road dude who sees any new blood as potential competition
- The new dude who has read and studied all of the top gear and top shooters and continually 'advises' every new shooter around them on what gear they need to get or techniques they have to try because "Joe Pro" uses or does it...
Acera
Member
Wrong.
50M has been using .22LR since 1908, and still does.
25M rapid fire is shot with a .22LR
25M womens sport pistol is shot with a .22LR
Other ISSF recognized sports that are not air gun include 25M center fire pistol (Men).
In fact there are more Olympic pistol sports that don't use the airgun than do.
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I run a bullseye league for a local gun club that I belong to. We have had a bullseye League since I joined the club in 1982 other than a couple years only didn't have a range.
We allow people to shoot either one-handed or two-handed since the NRA introduced what they are calling the probationary match. As I understand it from the NRA they do not segregate the scores unless you are expert or above. I just send the NRA the scores and tell them which ones are two handed. We've had some people that shoot some matches one handed and some two handed.
We shoot two matches every league night. I have seriously considered shooting one match one handed and the other two handed just for the heck of it.
Personally I think bullseye is dying out because it is not able to attract New Blood. I would guess the average age of our Shooters is probably 50. Now and then we get some younger Shooters but they don't usually last long.
It's a game where you have to appreciate just how hard it is to put 10 rounds in the X-Ring. Many people who are casual Shooters do not understand just how hard that is.
This last year I finally gave up iron sights and went electronic. I always thought there was something special about shooting iron sights until my eyes went.
For most of us it's just about fun and being with people we like who have similar interests. We have a couple guys who take it more seriously. Several who have gone to the National matches. I doubt that I will ever be good enough make it worthwhile for me to do that but at might be fun to do it once.
We allow people to shoot either one-handed or two-handed since the NRA introduced what they are calling the probationary match. As I understand it from the NRA they do not segregate the scores unless you are expert or above. I just send the NRA the scores and tell them which ones are two handed. We've had some people that shoot some matches one handed and some two handed.
We shoot two matches every league night. I have seriously considered shooting one match one handed and the other two handed just for the heck of it.
Personally I think bullseye is dying out because it is not able to attract New Blood. I would guess the average age of our Shooters is probably 50. Now and then we get some younger Shooters but they don't usually last long.
It's a game where you have to appreciate just how hard it is to put 10 rounds in the X-Ring. Many people who are casual Shooters do not understand just how hard that is.
This last year I finally gave up iron sights and went electronic. I always thought there was something special about shooting iron sights until my eyes went.
For most of us it's just about fun and being with people we like who have similar interests. We have a couple guys who take it more seriously. Several who have gone to the National matches. I doubt that I will ever be good enough make it worthwhile for me to do that but at might be fun to do it once.
thomas15
Member
There probably isn't any kind of shooting sport where to become "good" you don't have to invest a lot of time and at least a little bit of money. So I think the thing to do is pick one and get working. Figure a couple of years of hard work before you start placing well. But the main thing is you have to make a commitment and stay true to that commitment. Good gear and a lot of practice. This is sometimes very difficult to do at first when you are getting clobbered every time you shoot a match. But keep in mind that every match winner was first a match loser for probably a long time.
Not that I'm the measure of all things but to use myself as an example this is the beginning of my 5th year in competitive shooting of handguns. I'm still trying to find my home in the arena but I'm closing in on it. One thing at least for me is I cannot do it all. In other words I see an appeal to several different roads but time and money have forced me to make decisions which in a perfect world I would not have to make.
I see improvement in my abilities but I'm still working on becoming consistent in some of what might be considered the basics. But shooters that two years ago blew my doors off are beginning to look a bit less intimidating.
To use Steel Challenge as an example I have witnessed (and I'm sure many others here have also) new shooters that thought they were good and that this is easy, blow through $100.00 worth of ammo at their first match and still not have enough ammo to finish the match. Add that to the entry fee, travel expenses and having to admit to friends and family that their first match was not a stunning success puts that individual in the position of having to decide if they really want to compete or just punch holes in paper a few times per year.
I personally think the best way to keep yourself pointed in the right direction is to join a club that has an active group of shooters that compete in the arena your interested and get with those people, often. They are out there, you have to find them. You need to be sending lead downrange often and you need to have some direction on how to do this. Sure there are some lone wolfs out there but why if you don't have to? The best advice I can give is be compliant, don't try to insert a round peg into a square hole. Things are done a certain way because experience will say they work. Get used to the fact that some of those who do well at matches are not what we might otherwise consider "cool" people.
Not that I'm the measure of all things but to use myself as an example this is the beginning of my 5th year in competitive shooting of handguns. I'm still trying to find my home in the arena but I'm closing in on it. One thing at least for me is I cannot do it all. In other words I see an appeal to several different roads but time and money have forced me to make decisions which in a perfect world I would not have to make.
I see improvement in my abilities but I'm still working on becoming consistent in some of what might be considered the basics. But shooters that two years ago blew my doors off are beginning to look a bit less intimidating.
To use Steel Challenge as an example I have witnessed (and I'm sure many others here have also) new shooters that thought they were good and that this is easy, blow through $100.00 worth of ammo at their first match and still not have enough ammo to finish the match. Add that to the entry fee, travel expenses and having to admit to friends and family that their first match was not a stunning success puts that individual in the position of having to decide if they really want to compete or just punch holes in paper a few times per year.
I personally think the best way to keep yourself pointed in the right direction is to join a club that has an active group of shooters that compete in the arena your interested and get with those people, often. They are out there, you have to find them. You need to be sending lead downrange often and you need to have some direction on how to do this. Sure there are some lone wolfs out there but why if you don't have to? The best advice I can give is be compliant, don't try to insert a round peg into a square hole. Things are done a certain way because experience will say they work. Get used to the fact that some of those who do well at matches are not what we might otherwise consider "cool" people.
entropy
Member
Sure there's one- combat shooting. You can get paid to learn it, and if you get sent straight to combat from boot camp. not much time. Course, the learning curve is steep.......
Mike OTDP
Member
Good points. I dabble in Bullseye, shoot the International events more, but my first love is Black Powder. I'll concede that some BE shooters can be a bit standoffish...but I've walked in out of nowhere and shot matches in California and had a warm welcome. I think the biggest problem they have is the lack of publicity.
Either way, the precision disciplines lay a solid foundation of skill. If you can get hits at 50 yards with one hand, you can make reliable head shots at defensive distances with two. Not to mention the cool factor at the local range...set up a 50 yard pistol target and people look at you like you were a Martian. Get hits, and they think you're armed with the Heat Ray.
Either way, the precision disciplines lay a solid foundation of skill. If you can get hits at 50 yards with one hand, you can make reliable head shots at defensive distances with two. Not to mention the cool factor at the local range...set up a 50 yard pistol target and people look at you like you were a Martian. Get hits, and they think you're armed with the Heat Ray.
Atmospheric digression here:
One can place all sports (not just shooting sports) along a spectrum between "experimental" sports and "constrained" sports, which reflect the degree of autonomy given to competitors to figure out their own way to "solve the problem" of the game. Sports that prescribe highly-specific methods - exactly how to perform the fundamental task - are highly constrained. Sports that set forth a general challenge and afford wide latitude in solving it are highly experimental.* Competitors in highly-constrained games aren't really trying to figure out "the best way" to throw a heavy ball or traverse a narrow path or fight another human into submission or make small holes in a distant target... they're trying to execute a specific action at the highest level of performance.
Some folks are strongly draw to one end of the spectrum or the other. I think it is fair to say that bullseye pistol is a highly-constrained sport. The fact that the one-handed constraint means eschewing the most efficient way to make holes appear in a distant target is beside the point from the standpoint of the fan of non-experimental games. They're not trying to figure out the best way. They're trying to do the best job of one particular way.
For people who like sports with an experimental spirit, this seems off-putting or annoying. For those who like constrained sports, this is a big part of the appeal.
* Of course, all sports have elements of each. A truly and purely unconstrained sport would probably lead to the development of the strategy of ambushing your competitor at his home the morning of the game. A purely non-experimental sport would require mind-reading to make sure that competitors were all using the same thought process.
One can place all sports (not just shooting sports) along a spectrum between "experimental" sports and "constrained" sports, which reflect the degree of autonomy given to competitors to figure out their own way to "solve the problem" of the game. Sports that prescribe highly-specific methods - exactly how to perform the fundamental task - are highly constrained. Sports that set forth a general challenge and afford wide latitude in solving it are highly experimental.* Competitors in highly-constrained games aren't really trying to figure out "the best way" to throw a heavy ball or traverse a narrow path or fight another human into submission or make small holes in a distant target... they're trying to execute a specific action at the highest level of performance.
Some folks are strongly draw to one end of the spectrum or the other. I think it is fair to say that bullseye pistol is a highly-constrained sport. The fact that the one-handed constraint means eschewing the most efficient way to make holes appear in a distant target is beside the point from the standpoint of the fan of non-experimental games. They're not trying to figure out the best way. They're trying to do the best job of one particular way.
For people who like sports with an experimental spirit, this seems off-putting or annoying. For those who like constrained sports, this is a big part of the appeal.
* Of course, all sports have elements of each. A truly and purely unconstrained sport would probably lead to the development of the strategy of ambushing your competitor at his home the morning of the game. A purely non-experimental sport would require mind-reading to make sure that competitors were all using the same thought process.
Others have addressed the legality...
My comment is: absent some disability, I think you want to shoot it one handed, because shooting it one handed will magnify any slight errors in technique you have. When you have perfected your technique, the lessons learned (grip, trigger pull, ...) will directly apply to two handed shooting.
That said, I have no objection to allowing two handed shooting, if people prefer. I just think they are missing out on a chance of improvement.
(re grumpiness: not my experience. I shot a couple of seasons of bullseye with a Single Six, and never encountered hostility. But, of course, YMMV)
My comment is: absent some disability, I think you want to shoot it one handed, because shooting it one handed will magnify any slight errors in technique you have. When you have perfected your technique, the lessons learned (grip, trigger pull, ...) will directly apply to two handed shooting.
That said, I have no objection to allowing two handed shooting, if people prefer. I just think they are missing out on a chance of improvement.
(re grumpiness: not my experience. I shot a couple of seasons of bullseye with a Single Six, and never encountered hostility. But, of course, YMMV)
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