Sub-machine gun magazine design

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Flechette

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I have wondered for some time why guns like the Uzi and Mac 10 have magazines that are mounted perpendicular to the barrel axis.

Having such a magazine destroys the ergonomics of the handle and makes the gun harder to shoot.

Why did these guns not use the angled magazine designs so prevalent in modern semi-auto handgun designs?
 
Don't know for sure why they are that way but it doesn't destroy ergonomics. Being a big hunk of metal does that.

In any case the UZI and most MAC's are double stack double feed. Off the top of my head all of the "angled" magazines I can think of are single feed.

singledoublefeed.jpg
 
A big, heavy, hunk of metal. Uzi's and Mac 10's have magazines that are like that to make the OAL short.
Nothing modern about the angled magazine designs either. Think Luger, 1911, et al.
 
Don't know for sure why they are that way but it doesn't destroy ergonomics. Being a big hunk of metal does that.

In any case the UZI and most MAC's are double stack double feed. Off the top of my head all of the "angled" magazines I can think of are single feed.

singledoublefeed.jpg
Is there a reason sub-machine guns need double feed magazines?

I remember a sub-gun like gun called the "Linda" that used angled magazines. I do not know if any were capable of full-auto, though.
 
Double feed magazines allow higher capacity in a shorter length as the rounds are staggered.
 
The magazine design trumps ergonomics. The magazine has to feed reliably first.

You will notice that just about all 9mm Para submachine guns magazine are straight. There is probably a reason.....
 
Double feed magazines allow higher capacity in a shorter length as the rounds are staggered.

Angled magazines also have staggered rounds.
 
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You will notice that just about all 9mm Para submachine guns magazine are straight. There is probably a reason.....

Ahhh...but arguably the most successful (popular? functional?) 9mm sub-gun is the MP-5 and it uses magazines curved to follow the line created by 9mm cartridges nestled together snugly, with that ever-so-slight taper to each one. As did the very successful Sterling. (And also the Vz.61 Skorpion, though in .32.)

And that's the opposite direction from the angled magazines of a 1911 or Luger.

On the complete other hand, you can run rounds through a Glock or M&P or xD, etc., every bit as fast as some sub-guns with a much lower rate of expected feeding failures than most 9mm sub-guns tend to produce. I mean, if you asked which is more likely to run reliably at high rates, a Glock or a MAC-11/9 ... well, you wouldn't even have to ask. :)

So the question is a bit more of a head-scratcher than it would first appear.

I think a lot of it might have to do with basic simplicity. What's the easiest high-capacity box magazine to make? A square box with no tapers or bends or angles. A lot of sub guns are built around that idea of greatest simplicity. Of course, when you're putting the magazine into a separate mag well forward of the grip (Sten, Thompson, M3, S&W-76, Reising, Beretta Model 38 or 12, and on and on...) why not make it as simple as possible?

When you want the compactness and extra barrel length of the Uzi or MAC, then the mag goes into the grip, and especially back in the days before advanced polymer frames and grip assemblies, that means a bulky, more perpendicular grip shape.
 
Are .45 MAC mags double feed? All 9mm and .380 MAC mags are center feed (but still straight)

Mike
 
Flechette said:
Why did these guns not use the angled magazine designs so prevalent in modern semi-auto handgun designs?
In a handgun, the angled magazine allows the overall length of the slide to be shorter (for a give barrel length) behind the magazine. This is a product of both the need for the breech block to uncover the magazine feed lips and the distance required to allow a tilting barrel to unlock.

What the designers are trading off is barrel length for slide length. The obvious exception is the H&K P7 which has a 4" barrel and vertical magazine in the same package as the 3.5" barrel P5 or P6...the difference is the the barrel doesn't unlock to move to the rear.

Neither of these are considerations in the Uzi or the MAC family as the the receivers extend well behind the grip

Angled magazines also have staggered rounds.
If you look closely at the picture in post #4, you'll see that there is indeed a difference.

In a double column magazine the rounds are staggered all the way to the feed lips. In an angled pistol magazine the staggered rounds narrow to a single column feed before they reach the top (usually about 3 rounds down)

The only handguns I can remember with double column magazines are the MAB PA-15 and the Steyr GB
 
Sam1911 said:
Ahhh...but arguably the most successful (popular? functional?) 9mm sub-gun is the MP-5 and it uses magazines curved to follow the line created by 9mm cartridges nestled together snugly, with that ever-so-slight taper to each one. As did the very successful Sterling.
Apples vs. oranges :p

Their magazines are outside of the grip which allows greater latitude in design
 
Oh absolutely! But when asking what's the most reliable-feeding magazine design (and whether a straight box mag is "it"), I just wanted to interject that some makers haven't thought a straight mag was quite good enough.

And of course, lots more thought it was.


(But how uncomfortable would a grip be if it was made to hold an MP5 mag! :D)
 
Double-Column Magazines are Allegedly More Reliable

From what I have read about SMG design the double-column, double-feed (dual-feed) magazines are supposed to be inherently more reliable.

The Thompson uses such a design while the Sten and the MP 38/40 series use a double-column, single-feed. The problem is alleged to be increased friction on the rounds as they are feeding.

The Sten had a probably well-deserved reputation for jamming. I have not heard a similar reputation for the MP 38/40 series. I wonder if it might be because the Sten was inexpensively designed and parts were made by non-gun manufacturers (e.g. sewing machine makers) while the MP 38/40 series was machined and made by gun manufacturers.
 
Conn., besides teh drag on both sides of the cartridge to be fed into the chamber on a single feed mag, I think the STEN has alot of room for a cartridge to feed wrong. Finnland's Amio Lahti eliminated this by having the KP-31 Soumi's feed area small and confined, with no way to turn or misfeed. It did very well, reliability wize, with a drum that single fed straight in and a box mag that angled the cartridges into the breech.
Lahti also was one of the first 9mm(after Thompson's .45) to have double stacked and double feed mags. His improvement was to angle both left and right tward the center, the magazine being sorta 'wedge shaped. The bullets from both sides feed tward center and loading the magazine is as easy as a Thompsons.
These hugely successful magazines were copied and issued with many later designs.

I think the Mac and the Uzi took the 'middle of the road" with the straight mag, as having a forward tilted pistol grip (Czeck 7.62vz-26) dosent have a very good feel when held for aimed fire. A forward curved mag wouldnt work and rearward swept mag would project back, much like the original MP-18 that used Luger clips or drums, a rather akward arrangement.
 
FWIW, the angled grip of the Luger was not really either for better feeding or for ergonomics. It was to allow for a more efficient angle for the spring force that closes the toggle. The Borchardt has a straight grip but the spring force is applied straight down; that wouldn't work when Luger shortened the pistol and the spring force was applied more forward. So, in order to get better downward closing force, with the new spring design, he had to angle the grip backward. As it happened, the result is what many consider a near perfect handgun grip.

Jim
 
Back when I was setting myself up to later feel dumb for not paying $600 for a TVA trade-in Reising gun, there was a guy making magazines for them. He cut and welded surplus 30 round Thompson "sticks" to the center feed Reising location. Even with the top tapered in, they still held 25 rounds and reportedly worked better than the originals.
 
The Uzi was designed that way for ease of reloading under the stress of combat. Hand finds Hand . Back in the day, the Uzi was used by every one who needed a compact FA sub gun.Half of the words military and even our own Secret Service .
 
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