Subshotmachine gun?

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Nolo

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I was looking at Saiga 12 shotties, thinking how cool they are, when I started thinking about how bad that recoil must get after a couple of magazines. Then I thought about that load they made for the .410 bore with three 000 buckshot balls.
So I had an idea. What if you took an (semi) automatic shotgun platform, say the Saiga, and chambered it for something like .410 to 28 gauge and loaded it with a few 000 buckshot balls? The ability to really quickly continue your shots would make you able to really saturate the target, with three to five balls coming out the end of your gun with every pull of the trigger.
What do you think?
 
I'd cast my vote for 9 .33 caliber pellets coming out with every pull of the trigger... i.e. a saiga-12.

Thr tromix .410 conversion would be a nice toy for squirrels, though.
 
Really? Why?
If you shoved them at the same speed as a 12 gauge, wouldn't it be similar?
I was worried about the recoil from the Saiga. Is it bad? I've heard it is.
 
Have you refilled your lithium prescription?
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Ok that was not very high road.. But yeah I was kind of thinking something similiar on those lines. Just not that hellarious.

A fully auto Tromix built saiga 12 does not seem to climb too bad from what the fellas shooting them on utube. I would just skip the .410 and go with a 12 gauge.

:)
 
.410's don't shove them out at the same speed as a 12 gauge. Plus, when you consider the fact that the .410 has three balls compared to nine out of a 12 gauge with tons more power, there is no question.
 
the fact that the .410 has three balls compared to nine out of a 12 gauge with tons more power,
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Theres a five ball load for the longest .410 magnums. You seldom hear about it since most .410 pistols and magazine fed shotguns aren't chambered for the longer magnum shells. More recoil than the users of .410 pistols would want but if used in a semi auto would increase hit probability.

PS
I'd figure that custom brass case loads could be made up using the cases they manufacture for the Sharps .45 long range cartridges.
 
.410's don't shove them out at the same speed as a 12 gauge. Plus, when you consider the fact that the .410 has three balls compared to nine out of a 12 gauge with tons more power, there is no question.
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And a 5.56 is less powerful than a 7.62x51. You use it in greater quantity.
I think the meat of this is that .410 is not powerful enough to take goblins.
Okay. We make a bigger gauge.
I watched the YouTube Saiga-12 vids, and that recoil was pretty punishing. The Saiga had more control over where the rounds were going than the shooter did. Not good.
So speed is an issue. Then you should just use a bigger gauge. Not 12, too big for what I'm looking for.
I'm really looking to shoot roughly 2-3 "9mms" (bullets of equivalent weights to a 9mm Parabellum, yes I know 000 shot is not as heavy) with each round. The rounds should be significantly thinner than 12 gauge so that you aren't stuck with small 10-round mags. I want at least a 20 round magazine for this weapon, roughly the power of 3 9mms with each pull of the trigger and full-auto.
I think it's a reasonable bill. Something like .55 caliber, perhaps?
Ashcraft, fair enough, I wasn't sure where to put this as it is rather a combination of the shotgun concept and the submachinegun concept.
 
I've shot 20 gauge, and I still think it's a bit big. Wide, really. I want to avoid a maximum magazine capacity of only 10-ish rounds.
I just did a search, the .410 magnum rounds in 000 buckshot have five pellets, not three.
 
A 12 gauge in 000 buckshot does 1400 f/s.
A .410 bore in 000 buckshot does 1140 f/s.
So we've got a 250 f/s disparity.
If you design the cartridge right, I think that you can get over that.
The pressures are pretty low for both of those shells, no?
Make the pressures higher. The AK can take it.
 
Aside from recoil, the main beef I have with 12 gauge is its width. It's so wide for a magazine-fed weapon. You can't really have a good hi-capacity magazine with 12 gauge. "Hi-cap" for a 12 is 20 rounds. And that's really hi-cap. A 20-round drum for a Saiga is the same size or bigger than a 75 round drum on an AK. I don't have a problem with 12 gauge normally, but in this case I wish you could have a higher capacity.
Uhh, any reason you wouldn't want to upgrade to 28ga instead of 410?
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I believe I mentioned 28 gauge before in the OP. If I didn't, I meant to, as I was seriously considering that round.
 
Tromix makes what it sounds like you're looking for.

s21-41010inchC-sm.gif

http://www.tromix.com/saiga.htm (scroll to the bottom)
 
Not really, Deer Hunter, but you are closer than I think a lot of people are (I have seen that weapon before, by the way, visit world.guns often). I think people are getting their heads in a knot because of the fact that they're thinking "shotgun" when I'm thinking "improved submachine gun". So yeah, you're close, but it's not exactly what I was thinking of. Especially since the ergonomics on that thing look terrible and it's a pump. I'm going auto, baby.
 
That's as close as you're going to come to what you're looking for while still having the handiness and short range functionality of an SMG. Anything else and you're looking into a simply shortened version of a regular autoloading shotgun. Honestly, for a subgun to be any better than an intermediate rifle in a small package, it must be very small and concealable.
 
It's close. Like others, I think that the .410 is a bit small for the job, but it's close. I was considering .500, .510 and .550.
One of the things I'm kinda trying to figure out right now is cartridge efficiency. I'm looking for about 3-6 000 pellets in each shell, arranged in this pattern:
O O
O
or this pattern:
OO
So you'd have a layered stack, not an in-line like a .410, I believe.
 
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