Suggestions for a SHTF rifle for a nonshooter

[Bostonterrier97]

M1 Carbine, SKS Rifles come to my mind.
Maybe an AK Rifle
If she wants something else. Maybe a Lee Enfield
One interesting derivative of a shortened Lee Enfield chambered in 7.62x39mm
can be seen here: http://www.securityarms.com/20010315/galleryfiles/2700/2750.htm

and http://www.tristarsportingarms.com/m10rifles.htm

This rifle: the M10 is a Lee Enfield action which accepts AK 47 Magazines.
Note the Rail system for a Scope and a rear peep sight to be used as a back up sight.

 

[Kalashnikov]

How much do those M10 rifles go for? I like the idea.

 

[Legionnaire]

wdlsguy, I personally think the Savage 24 in .22mag/20ga is the ultimate small game gun, and it would be great for a bugout bag if survival in rural areas is what's contemplated. But I sure wouldn't want a break action single shot (okay, two shots if you load both barrels) for self defense.

 

[Farnham]

I like the Hi-Point and Storm suggestions, as well as the 20ga. But if the S DOES HTF, I'd rather have something that shoots at least .223. Check out the Saiga, SU16, Mini-14, or even a Savage 10 or CZ bolt action. Good luck, and have fun.

S/F

Farnham

PS: Go with an AR. Good hunting.

 

[epijunkie67]

Sorry I haven't replied all day. Got pounded at work.

OK, for the comments up til now. I considered a 20 gauge but thats still a lot of recoil compared to something like an AR or a 9mm carbine.

I also considered the SKS but think she may consider it a bit heavy. Of course that means it sucks up recoil more so that's a trade off.

I like the lever action ideas and will try those out.

And to answer the question about recoil in a handgun; she tried plain .38s in my Taurus mod66 steel frame with 4" barrel and hogue grips and hated it. I also tried her on a 9mm and a 1911 and she thought they all had too much recoil.

I guess the bottom line is I'll have to take her to the range and let her shoot what I own and see what she likes. I was just wanting to get some initial ideas in case I might have missed something.

Here is a partial list of what's in the safe I thought I try her out on.
Marlin lever in .357
SU16 .223
Hi-point 9mm carbine (Maybe get one in .40?)
SKS 7.62X39 (Maybe AK47 instead? Don't own one yet. Recoil?)
CETME .308 (Heavy but suprisingly low recoil. I worry about reliability)
Lever guns in .22 Mag and .45 colt
Shotguns in .410, and 28, 20, and 12 gauges.

And lastly, a few unusual ideas I had. Taurus is supposed to be coming out with a levergun in .32 magnum and a pump in .357 later this year. And FN is supposed to begin shipping the civilian version of the P90 bullpup rifle in a few months. That's 50 rounds per mag and no recoil from a 40 grain round traveling >2000 fps.

Any thoughts on those last few?

 

[jefnvk]

I think the 5.7x28 still isn't up to .223, and is quite expensive, both the gun and ammo.

The F2000 is a bullpup, which shoots 5.56 IIRC, is being released with the P90. It may be worth a look, if you are willing to pony up the money (upwards of $2000)

 

[cslinger]

How about something along the lines of a Beretta Storm. Very short, very light, no recoil so to speak, plenty of attachemet points for sights, lights and other gear, not that expensive. Basically a decent all around short range defensive firearm.

I also like the lever action carbine suggestions.

Short ARs are still kind of heavy for some folks unless a pencil thin barrel.

That Enfield above, although super cool will probably be a bit too heavy.

SHTF is such a broad subject. Heck if society falls down around us a good .22 rifle might just be about the best thing in the world since having 1000 rounds of ammo around is nothing and you can shoot lots of small birds, squirrels etc. to eat and it is quiet enough to harass any pursuers while allowing you to beat feet.

If SHTF is just some jackoff breaking in any of the first three will do just fine.

Chris

 

[rwc]

Maybe come at it a different way. Make a list of tasks this rifle will have to perform. Then rank them.

Have your fiancee shoot anything and everything she might be interested in. Have her rank them.

Compare the two lists and find a "sweet spot" where they intersect, i.e. rifle style and caliber. Then have her fish around on the internet comparing everything under the sun to see what she wants for her birthday... Have fun and recognize you are blessed - shower her in appreciation.

 

[roscoe]

You should find out what her tolerance for recoil is. The .223 is really great for that, no question. I have a .223 Saiga, but they are harder to find these days (word is that a new importer will be ready to distribute them by the end of the summer). Also: AR 180B and SU 16.

Is she comfortable with lever action? That might be a factor. Some levers really have to be jerked and some people have trouble loading cartridges through the gate.

I would avoid bolt action for self defense - I think it requires quite a bit of training to cycle one quicky on the shoulder.

People have been mentioning the .22, but I would argue that the .22 magnum out of a rifle is a different animal altogether. You can get small, light lever rifles for this caliber, and autoloaders. Recoil is nonexistent.

Good luck!

 

[Daniel964]

I've heard that Hi-point is coming out with a carbine in .45 later this year if you want a little more punch. I also know that you can get after market mags for the 9mm that hold 15 rounds. I'll see if I can find the site that sells them if no one else beats me to it.

As for a hand gun. My wife is small. Five foot 130 pounds with small hands and is recoil and weapon weight sensitive. I bought a Taurus 731. It's a .32 H&R magnum, ported. Shes been shooting the S&W longs out of it so far. About 600 rounds and likes it a lot. She can shoot 100 rounds at a session with no problem. Hasn't tried the magnums yet. The magnum loads are real close to a .380 ballistics.

The only downside I have found so far is ammo cost. the best price I have found for the longs at a gun show was $13.00 for a box of 50. At the range we go to they are $16.00 for a box of 50. I'm going to start reloading and I think I can get that down to between $6.00 and $7.00 a box of 50.

 

[355sigfan]

Does a tube magazine count?

A lever action in .357 magnum fits your criteria with that one exception. Accurate, hard hitting (.357 gains a lot from that extra barrel length) and minimal recoil. For practice/fun she can shoot .38's out of it that will recoil like a .22.

A Marlin 1894C is a sweet little shooter.

Another good choice would be a low(er) end AK such as a WASR-10.

A 357 mag is a pistol round and is not hard hitting in rifle terms even from a longer barrel. Stay away from all the pistol caliber pop guns and rimfires for this application stay with a 223/556 semi auto carbine like the AR15 or perhaps the Mini 14. The AKM family in 7.62 is also not too bad for this role.
Pat

 

[epijunkie67]

I think the 5.7x28 still isn't up to .223, and is quite expensive, both the gun and ammo

The 5.7X28 is supposed to be up to the .223. It's designed to replace the 9mm and should be considered more of a carbine. I already have the pistol so have plenty of ammo already, though getting more would be a problem if anything big were to ever happen.

Compare the two lists and find a "sweet spot" where they intersect

A good idea. That will have to occur after I've gotten her to the range and let her shoot the before mentioned rifles. I think the list I've got is broad enough to give her a good idea of what she will and won't like.

 

[355sigfan]

The 5.7 is not even close to the .223. Compare a 20 grain bullet at 2300 fps vs a 55 grain bullet at 3200 fps. Sorry but no comparison. The 5.7 was designed to replace the 9mm a pistol round not the .223.
Pat

 

[Ivy Mike]

Um, the AK in 5.45x39 has raltively light recoil.
You can also stick a butt-pad and muzzle brake on it to soak up more recoil

 

[crofrog]

Uzi...

UZI in 9mm.

Very simple manual of arms.
Very low recoil
abundant magizine's and parts
Fairly cheap
not to large esp if you get it as a SBR or micro uzi

Chris

 

[Derek Zeanah]

1. If she's a nonshooter, I don't know that I'd worry about a SHTF rifle for her. If she's not a shooter, she won't be able to get much use out of it anyway. There's more to it than having the right equipment, and you could argue that someone with the training but no equipment would be better off in a SHTF scenario than someone untrained but with all the right gear.
2. If she's just recoil-shy, get her an AR-15 that seems reasonable, and make her shoot it enough that she can work SPORTS without thinking about it. Double-feeds happen, unfortunately.

 

[Too Many Choices!?]

I say cheat a little...

Give her something you know she won't like the recoil of(that cetme would do the job), and then give her an AR, .40 cal carbine ,lever action carbine or SKS and she will fall in love with the low recoil ! If she doesn't like those, the best thing you could have on hand would be a Glock (.40 my is preference or 9mm for the lil lady)with a Kel Tec carbine in the same caliber for mag compatibility and that reach out and touch someone factor...

I was gonna say the Mech tec carbine system(which fits on a Glock frame and is a carbine) but don't know if it is reliable ...

 

[roscoe]

A 357 mag is a pistol round and is not hard hitting in rifle terms even from a longer barrel.

I respectfully disagree - the Buffalo Bore .357 from a 18.5" barrel exceeds the power from from a .223 by a fair measure and essentially matches the 7.62x39. With a .357 lever gun you have a very versatile weapon since you can step down to .38 special. Range is probably not much beyond 100-150 yards, but that is probably sufficient for most any SHTF situation she might encounter.

I do agree that 9mm and .40 carbines do not increase the power of the cartridge appreciably.

Recoil will vary, of course, depending on load. Might I also recomend a peep sight. A short .357 carbine seems like a very handy weapon.

 

[355sigfan]

With respect the 223 is more powerfull than the 7.62X39. The 357 mag even the hot loaded stuff from a rifle does not match it. Care to but some figures up. A .223 with a 55 grain bullet at 3200 fps has 1250 foot pounds.
Pat

 

[wdlsguy]

But I sure wouldn't want a break action single shot (okay, two shots if you load both barrels) for self defense.

The guy said his fiance is not a shooter. That being the case, the simpler the manual of arms, the better, IMO.

 

[KarbineKrazy]

Get her a Ruger PC9 or Camp 9 and be done with it.

Do you really think that is the SHTF and it's TEOTWAWKI she's just magically gonna become a killing machine and mow down every bad guy that comes her way harrassing her?

IMHO, my Marlin Camp 9 would be a top choice for a SHTF gun, I can pack lots of ammo, cheap mags(20 rounders!) and it's super reliable as long as you keep it some what clean. It's one of my more accurate carbines, it recoils about like my 10/22, I can hit targets and 75-100 yards like no other through a 4X scope.
IMO, for survival purposes it has plenty of power to bring down deer and other similar sized game. It's quiet so if you let a few rounds fly you aren't gonna be pin pointed instantly from a few miles away.

9 mm Luger is the most common centerfire autoloading pistol round so it will be easy to find.

Now, it would not be my choice for a fire fight, but I think we are kind of jumping the gun here when we says 5.56 is the bare minimum.

Every girl I've took shooting loved my Camp 9, not everyone loved my .223s or 7.62x39s(most didn't like the .30s)

While your at it get a 16.5 lb recoil spring and a few extra buffers(I heard they made urethane ones now though...)

 

[PAC 762]

AK-74 with a PK-A type red dot. Cheap ammo/mags, low recoil, reliable, and designed for people who aren't well trained.

 

[roscoe]

With respect the 223 is more powerfull than the 7.62X39. The 357 mag even the hot loaded stuff from a rifle does not match it. Care to but some figures up. A .223 with a 55 grain bullet at 3200 fps has 1250 foot pounds.

I gotta disagree with you:

.223 Remington Express 55gr. 3240fps 1282 ft lbs
7.62x39 Remington Express 125gr. 2365fps 1552 ft lbs
.357 Buffalo Bore 158gr. (18.5" bbl) 2153 fps 1547 ft lbs

 

[GW]

Do the SU-16
cheap, plentiful mags & ammo
Slap a good red dot on top and you're good to go
Plus its lightweight and pretty accurate The built in bipod can help give her a stable shooting base and the spare mags stashed in the buttstock make it a very handy rifle

 

[106rr]

I tried the Marlin 357 lever and it worked for my wife. I loaded it with 38 special pointed down range and placed the butt gainst my crotch. I fired and she could see that it didn't hurt. I repeated the process with the butt against my chin for emphasis.
She tried a few shots with the 38s and hit the close range target. She also worked up the confidence to shoot a one gallon jug of water with the 357 mag loads. It was spectacular and confidence building. It's been a long road to get her to shoot, 33 years. Yours might be a little less hard headed than mine. She will be getting her G19 within ten days. We're taking a couples class in self defense from ITTS. She has been practicing with my G23/Advantage Arms 22 lr adapter.
Good Luck