I stand corrected on the energy levels. I still maintain the 357 mag does not have the fragmentation potential nor the down range energy of the 223. For simular reasons the 223 actually has better stopping power than the 7.62 x 39.
Pat
Pat
Suggestions for a SHTF rifle for a nonshooter
- Thread starter epijunkie67
- Start date
- Status
I haven't shot anything living with any of the three, so I don't know about wound potential. I wouldn't think any of them would lack for destructive potential within 100 yards, which is where his wife is likely to use the rifle. My point being that, as long as she is using defensive ammo, the platform might be more of an issue than the cartridge.
I will also say that I would not want to get hit with a 158 grain .357 hollowpoint moving along at over 2000 fps. I think there is a fair potential to cause grevious harm, fragmentation or not, so the lever gun might still make a good choice for her.
I will also say that I would not want to get hit with a 158 grain .357 hollowpoint moving along at over 2000 fps. I think there is a fair potential to cause grevious harm, fragmentation or not, so the lever gun might still make a good choice for her.
Too Many Choices!?
Member
- Joined
- Feb 21, 2005
- Messages
- 763
Energy, Smenergy;You are both right...
The .357 has more ,"Knock down power", and energy than .223, but that does not necissarily equate to ,"Flesh shredding power" or tissue damage...
Bottom line, with or without light armor, the .223 round will zip through and shred some things up pretty nasty. I am almost sure the .357 would atleast break whatever bones that were behind the armor(I don't wannna think what .357 would do hitting a non-armored bone like the femur, bet it'd shatter like glass with some nasty bone shards shredding the surrounding tissue like a .223 fragments
)
Both will work just fine on B/Gs
The .357 has more ,"Knock down power", and energy than .223, but that does not necissarily equate to ,"Flesh shredding power" or tissue damage...
Bottom line, with or without light armor, the .223 round will zip through and shred some things up pretty nasty. I am almost sure the .357 would atleast break whatever bones that were behind the armor(I don't wannna think what .357 would do hitting a non-armored bone like the femur, bet it'd shatter like glass with some nasty bone shards shredding the surrounding tissue like a .223 fragments
)Both will work just fine on B/Gs
.a 22 magnum isn't anything to sneeze at... and remember some gun is better than no gun. .22 's don't kick much, and are easy to train with until she's ready for a 'real' rifle in a centerfire caliber.
I haven't seen a 22 magnum misfire like other rimfires... that's the only real downfall.
A .30 cal carbine is indeed ideal, if loaded properly... ie soft point bullets.
I haven't seen a 22 magnum misfire like other rimfires... that's the only real downfall.
A .30 cal carbine is indeed ideal, if loaded properly... ie soft point bullets.
jlwatts3
Member
How about this:
http://www.ar-7.com/rifles/rifles.html
http://www.ar-7.com/rifles/rifles.html
Colonel Klink
Member
A long is not a good choice for home defense. If you are walking through the house with a long gun it is too easy for someone to grab it before you even turn the corner. Since she is new to using guns will she be able to shoot a BG? If she can't maybe any gun is not a good idea. Get a cordless phone, I keep my cell phone near, and put a lock on the inside of a closet.
I like the SU16 or the upcoming Taurus pump .357 mag (if it comes in a carbine length). The latter will be very fast for a non-semi-auto (yet cannot double-tap, which can be very frightening to a newbie), and can be practiced with .38 spls, for low recoil during practice. I wouldn't put her on a bullpup as you get a lot of smoke and noise in your face, and the 7.62x39, while relatively light-recoiling in the grand scheme of things, still recoils a tad more than a .223. And I think carbines in auto-pistol rounds (9mm, .40, .45) are pretty worthless...357 mag and .44 mag different story though. If you put her on an SU16, I'd think the longer 18.5" bbl (is it?) would be better than a 16 if possible; just less muzzle blast and more weight to absorb recoil. FWIW, I use a handgun for HD 'investigations', a handgun with 12 ga slung over the back if the noise sounds serious, and 12 ga in hand with a handgun nearby in the event of a 'hold ground and wait it out' scenario.
Been following the thread and thinking about this one. The M1 Carbine, fitted with a synthetic folding stock seems the best bet. Keep a bayonet with it. When in doubt, she could alway stab with it. Over all, the manual of arms is simple enough, it will work better with lower maintainance, and there are some serious SD rounds available in .30carbine.
Get her a suppressed 9mm/223 carbine. She'll love it so much
that you will never touch it yourself.
No, 357 carbines do NOT get 158 gr jhp's to 2000 fps. They DO, however, attain that speed with 125 gr jhps (and loads specifically designed for 20" barrels). However, such loads suck in a revolver, and there's no point in lugging around a rifle when you are limited to pistol type rds. The 223 has twice the effective range of a .44 or 357 carbine. The 223's win the 600 yd stages of the NRA matches, and the .357 and .44 carbines are just jokes at 300 yds.
that you will never touch it yourself.
No, 357 carbines do NOT get 158 gr jhp's to 2000 fps. They DO, however, attain that speed with 125 gr jhps (and loads specifically designed for 20" barrels). However, such loads suck in a revolver, and there's no point in lugging around a rifle when you are limited to pistol type rds. The 223 has twice the effective range of a .44 or 357 carbine. The 223's win the 600 yd stages of the NRA matches, and the .357 and .44 carbines are just jokes at 300 yds.from:
http://www.buffalobore.com/ammunition/default.htm#357
Heavy .357 Magnum
18.5 inch Marlin 1894
a. Item 19A/20-180gr. Hard Cast = 1851 fps
b. Item 19B/20-170gr. JHC = 1860 fps
c. Item 19C/20-158gr. Gold Dot = 2153 fps
d. Item 19D/20-125gr. Gold Dot = 2298 fps
I don't think anyone was arguing that this is a 300 yard cartridge. Nor was I suggesting she take any 300 yard shots.
http://www.gunblast.com/MilesFortis-AKChurch_BuffaloBore.htm
Buffalo Bore 180-grain .357 Magnum, Winchester '94 Ranger Compact
Velocity (fps)
1848 1725 1876 1879 1908
Average 1847 fps - Standard Deviation 71.6
Rifleman 173
Member
Over the years I've been teaching firearms, my fellow instructors and I have developed a defensive rifle program that gradually brings the novice (male or female) shooter into rifles.
Start off with a Ruger 10-22. You can get all sorts of detachable magazines from 10, 20 ,30, 50 to some 100 rounders. It has low recoil and low discomfort factors. This stage of firearms is where you drill the basics into them about safe handling, accuracy of fire, trigger control and breathing. The ammo for the 10-22 is cheap, generally less than $15.00 a brick of 1K rounds, and it is easy to load. Have them learn to shoot with the Ruger 10-22 until they're really comfortable with it. Have them do double taps, high speed (close range) shooting and have them shoot distant targets for accuracy. Once they are really proficient with their 10-22 then introduce them to their next shoulder mounted firearm:
The .30 caliber carbine. Again, it is a magazine-fed firearm that has low recoil and a low discomfort factor for newer shooters. Since the Ruger is only slightly different than the .30 caliber carbine, it won't take the novice shooter long to master this firearm.
Next in line would be the .223 caliber M-4 or AR-15 rifles/carbines. I like going from the .30 caliber carbine to the M-4 carbine because the M-4 carbine is more compact and more controllable for the novice shooter. Again, because they've already mastered the first two firearms, it won't take long for the newer shooter to become good with the .223 firearms.
Next I would have them try using a 7.62 X 39 firearm. I like using the AK type of shoulder-mounted firearms instead of the SKS carbines. It is at this stage of shooting rifles/carbines that some students "peak out" or feel no need to go beyond a 7.62 X 39 firearm. Because they've mastered a number of other firearms, they won't need to take a whole lot of time learning their basic skills over again. Most students tend to settle back in with the .223/5.56 M-4 AR-15 type firearms. It is at this stage that your novice shooters generally end up feeling comfortable and self-reliant about owning/shooting a decent .223 firearm.
This sytem works real good and is very safe with new shooters or shooters trying to gradually develop their skills.
Start off with a Ruger 10-22. You can get all sorts of detachable magazines from 10, 20 ,30, 50 to some 100 rounders. It has low recoil and low discomfort factors. This stage of firearms is where you drill the basics into them about safe handling, accuracy of fire, trigger control and breathing. The ammo for the 10-22 is cheap, generally less than $15.00 a brick of 1K rounds, and it is easy to load. Have them learn to shoot with the Ruger 10-22 until they're really comfortable with it. Have them do double taps, high speed (close range) shooting and have them shoot distant targets for accuracy. Once they are really proficient with their 10-22 then introduce them to their next shoulder mounted firearm:
The .30 caliber carbine. Again, it is a magazine-fed firearm that has low recoil and a low discomfort factor for newer shooters. Since the Ruger is only slightly different than the .30 caliber carbine, it won't take the novice shooter long to master this firearm.
Next in line would be the .223 caliber M-4 or AR-15 rifles/carbines. I like going from the .30 caliber carbine to the M-4 carbine because the M-4 carbine is more compact and more controllable for the novice shooter. Again, because they've already mastered the first two firearms, it won't take long for the newer shooter to become good with the .223 firearms.
Next I would have them try using a 7.62 X 39 firearm. I like using the AK type of shoulder-mounted firearms instead of the SKS carbines. It is at this stage of shooting rifles/carbines that some students "peak out" or feel no need to go beyond a 7.62 X 39 firearm. Because they've mastered a number of other firearms, they won't need to take a whole lot of time learning their basic skills over again. Most students tend to settle back in with the .223/5.56 M-4 AR-15 type firearms. It is at this stage that your novice shooters generally end up feeling comfortable and self-reliant about owning/shooting a decent .223 firearm.
This sytem works real good and is very safe with new shooters or shooters trying to gradually develop their skills.
Ivy Mike
Member
jeez, talk about back from the dead thread.
DAdams
Member
Plr 16
.223
Short for easy use around the house cleaning.
Scope or not.
Concealable (well somewhat).
Great addition to any collection.
.223
Short for easy use around the house cleaning.
Scope or not.
Concealable (well somewhat).
Great addition to any collection.
benEzra
Moderator Emeritus
My suggestion would be a lever-action .357 with an inexpensive red dot (can use .38's for practice), a Hi-Point 9mm carbine w/red dot, or a Marlin 9mm carbine w/red dot.
AR's are great rifles--some of the best on the civilian market, IMHO--but they are a bit more complicated to a newbie than your average rifle. People used to using AR's may not notice, but there are more controls, the chamber is a little bit harder/more awkward to check, you have to be religious about making sure the magazine is seated, and it requires a bit more mechanical aptitude to field strip and clean than does something like a mini-14.
I shoot competitively a little (IPSC/IDPA style), and have seen experienced AR shooters under stress have their magazines fall out in the middle of a string, because they didn't seat it firmly and forgot to pull-check.
AR's are excellent, soft-shooting rifles, and for me would take precedence in a disaster scenarover almost any other carbine except the AK platform, but I wouldn't recommend one as a first rifle unless the person was really interested in guns and would take the time to learn the platform well. From the OP, it sounds like the shooter in question is not really "into" rifles, so something with a simpler manual of arms might be better.
AR's are great rifles--some of the best on the civilian market, IMHO--but they are a bit more complicated to a newbie than your average rifle. People used to using AR's may not notice, but there are more controls, the chamber is a little bit harder/more awkward to check, you have to be religious about making sure the magazine is seated, and it requires a bit more mechanical aptitude to field strip and clean than does something like a mini-14.
I shoot competitively a little (IPSC/IDPA style), and have seen experienced AR shooters under stress have their magazines fall out in the middle of a string, because they didn't seat it firmly and forgot to pull-check.
AR's are excellent, soft-shooting rifles, and for me would take precedence in a disaster scenarover almost any other carbine except the AK platform, but I wouldn't recommend one as a first rifle unless the person was really interested in guns and would take the time to learn the platform well. From the OP, it sounds like the shooter in question is not really "into" rifles, so something with a simpler manual of arms might be better.
sacp81170a
Member
I just took the lady who cuts my hair to the range the other day to try out rifles and shotguns to see which one she liked best for her HD needs(she lives out in the country and has some "interesting" neighbors). We went through everything I thought was reasonable, including an AR, an M1 carbine, a 12 gauge pump with comp stock, a 20 gauge pump, and an 1894C in .44 mag.
She liked the recoil on the AR the M1 but thought they were a little complicated to operate. Didn't like the recoil on the shotguns (no surprise there, since she hasn't shot much since she was a kid). She absolutely loved the 1894C, especially since she was shooting .44 Special cowboy loads through it. Low recoil, easy to operate (she had a Daisy BB gun when she was a kid), didn't look like an EBR and it made .44 caliber holes in the paper. My suggestion is that you ask someone who has a few different guns for her to try or find a range that will rent some you can try. Let her make the decision.
BTW, Angie(my friend) has decided on the 1894C in .357 so she can use .38 special in it. We'll top it off with a red dot sight and she'll be good to go with a light, handy little gun that she can operate and will do the job. If she wants to learn more about the other stuff later, that's fine too.
aaronrkelly
Member
- Joined
- Sep 11, 2005
- Messages
- 1,087
For a non-shooter I think the AR15 will be to complicated of a firearm. Operation, cleaning etc. I have plenty of them and love them, but I would NOT hand one to my wife after a few range sessions and expect her to run it effectively.
You need something SIMPLE.....and apparenty with little recoil.
SKS and AK are stupid simple.....but too much recoil.
.22 rifle is not effective enough but would be better than nothing, perhaps look into a good .22mag rifle with decent scope.
9mm carbine is great, check out how she likes the HiPoint.....then consider perhaps a KelTec SUB2K. They fold up, great for carrying around and it fits my wife perfect - shes 5ft tall.
You need something SIMPLE.....and apparenty with little recoil.
SKS and AK are stupid simple.....but too much recoil.
.22 rifle is not effective enough but would be better than nothing, perhaps look into a good .22mag rifle with decent scope.
9mm carbine is great, check out how she likes the HiPoint.....then consider perhaps a KelTec SUB2K. They fold up, great for carrying around and it fits my wife perfect - shes 5ft tall.
MIL-DOT
member
considering your criteria :
1) your girlfriends likes and dislikes,and...
2) possible SHTF scenarios.......
i'm gonna agree with those that suggested the saiga chambered in .223.
it's economical, simple,reliable and robust, lighweight, reasonably accurate, very common round,etc. etc.
1) your girlfriends likes and dislikes,and...
2) possible SHTF scenarios.......
i'm gonna agree with those that suggested the saiga chambered in .223.
it's economical, simple,reliable and robust, lighweight, reasonably accurate, very common round,etc. etc.
Neo-Luddite
Member
Ruger 10/22 loaded with CCI ammo and factory rotary mag.
When she's got that down pat, step up to a mini, .30 Carbine or one of the many 9mm carbines.
The logic being, the 10/22 won't scare her with recoil, will be among the most likely to never need imediate action to clear a jam, and (if you don't have one) is a great little gun.
When she's got that down pat, step up to a mini, .30 Carbine or one of the many 9mm carbines.
The logic being, the 10/22 won't scare her with recoil, will be among the most likely to never need imediate action to clear a jam, and (if you don't have one) is a great little gun.
Last edited:
sansone
Member
for someone who wants to "bug-out" with only one gun I like the KelTec 9mm carbine for its folding stock and longer brrl accuracy. however for the person willing to bug-out with more than one gun it may be hard to justify this carbine since it represents a comprimise between rifle/pistol.
Float Pilot
Member
I would be a lot more afraid of a gal with a $150 stock SKS or $350 yard-sale Mini-14, who has shot up $900 in practice ammo; compared to a gal who has a $1200 Bushmaster M-4 clone and only $100 worth of practice ammo fired through it...
- Status
