Suggestions for gun-related 8th grade science project neeeded
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Sav .250
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Seems odd that he has permission and when other kids "draw" a pic of a gun,
they get suspended. That project seems to fly in the face of the school board. Go figure.
they get suspended. That project seems to fly in the face of the school board. Go figure.
I'm a youngun, but I've got a coworker that says he'd never be able to carry his posters to school now in what he did back in his day - a LAAW tube.
Anyway, onto the project - a lot of kids nowadays play first person shooters. Maybe do a mythbuster's rip-off where you dispel the illusions of video gaming.
Anyway, onto the project - a lot of kids nowadays play first person shooters. Maybe do a mythbuster's rip-off where you dispel the illusions of video gaming.
T Bran
Member
Contrary to popular beleif not all teachers and school board members are antis. Those that are not are the best allies we could get since they influence our kids first. I for one am impressed that his teacher will take the risk. Not the risk that that this is gun related but the chance of ridicule from his or her piers.
When I was in school my geometry teacher would send me to the vice principals office so that he could interogate me about my best places to hunt and fish. They were very generous with my grades and received some good info in return. So as much as you may hear about them all being anti there are still some on our side. RANT OFF.
T
When I was in school my geometry teacher would send me to the vice principals office so that he could interogate me about my best places to hunt and fish. They were very generous with my grades and received some good info in return. So as much as you may hear about them all being anti there are still some on our side. RANT OFF.
T
BK
Member
My recommendation would be to make a potato gun as an experiment of air pressure.
Those who say "pick another subject", can you add more than just that plain remark? Can you at least explain why he should avoid this opportunity that was approved by the school?
I do agree. But I also find it odd that, while he has permission from the school for this project, several members here would prefer that he not use this opportunity in an attempt toward desensitizing his community, and the school district/alumni of firearms ownership and usage. This would be activism at its finest IMHO. I know that there are some very wrong ways of attempting this project, but I think there are some very good ways of going about it too.
Those who say "pick another subject", can you add more than just that plain remark? Can you at least explain why he should avoid this opportunity that was approved by the school?
T Bran
Member
+ 1 BK
It would be a shame to waste a really unique opportunity.
It would be a shame to waste a really unique opportunity.
winfried
Member
Hi, there build a ballistic pendulum. Then let him prove the effect of the momentum of bullet impact. Very easy to build. I can let you have instruction for free.
Or let him build two ballistic pendulums opposing each other. On one the gun is mounted moved by the recoil. and the other pendulum receives the bullet.
However, it would be an advantage if you could take longish exposures of 3 or 4 seconds in low light.
If you are interested PM me, then we do it directly via email. If I may set one condition? Please record everything properly and make it here available and acknowledge that I am the owner of the intellectual property of this project, for the simple reason, I have published and will publish again experiments involving ballistic pendulums and I do not like to get into trouble for infringing my own copy right.
Furthermore I attach (if I manage OK) a collection of formulae relevant to ballistics. This might also help him some.
No do not heed the suggestion of people saying "pick another topic". Let the young man have a challenge, that is how scientists and researchers are made.
Regards
Or let him build two ballistic pendulums opposing each other. On one the gun is mounted moved by the recoil. and the other pendulum receives the bullet.
However, it would be an advantage if you could take longish exposures of 3 or 4 seconds in low light.
If you are interested PM me, then we do it directly via email. If I may set one condition? Please record everything properly and make it here available and acknowledge that I am the owner of the intellectual property of this project, for the simple reason, I have published and will publish again experiments involving ballistic pendulums and I do not like to get into trouble for infringing my own copy right.
Furthermore I attach (if I manage OK) a collection of formulae relevant to ballistics. This might also help him some.
No do not heed the suggestion of people saying "pick another topic". Let the young man have a challenge, that is how scientists and researchers are made.
Regards
Attachments
A demonstration the ex has been wanting to do for a while will show the dangerousness of the GFSZ 
Scenario 1: GFSZ Arm an 'active shooter character' with a nerf gun. Sit unarmed 'students' and 'teacher' and have ASC burst in, shoot T, Ss start trying to run and hide as ASC continues to shoot.
Scenario 2: 1 CCW (T) Arm ACS, have ACS burst in, T & ACS shoot it out while most Ss escape out of the back door, both shooters mortally wounded, and some Ss killed/wounded.
Scenario 3: 2-5 OC/CCW (T & Ss) Arm ACS, have ACS burst in, T & ACS shoot it out, OC/CCW draw and some also engage ACS, while some retreat with unarmed Ss providing escort.
Scenario 4: ACS realizes T and OC/CCW are in classroom and armed and decides to go somewhere else.
Supporting documentation and statistics can be provided.
Your son can use some of his friends to act this out, but he should swear them to secrecy He will need: "scream queens," "drama queens to die horrible deaths," "LAC to be OC/CCW," "a teacher-type," and a "bad guy"
The nerf gun ammo used should be dabbed in colored powder so "hits" can be seen/registered.
If they were older, paintball guns could be used, but he will probably need another project at some later date
Scenario 1: GFSZ Arm an 'active shooter character' with a nerf gun. Sit unarmed 'students' and 'teacher' and have ASC burst in, shoot T, Ss start trying to run and hide as ASC continues to shoot.
Scenario 2: 1 CCW (T) Arm ACS, have ACS burst in, T & ACS shoot it out while most Ss escape out of the back door, both shooters mortally wounded, and some Ss killed/wounded.
Scenario 3: 2-5 OC/CCW (T & Ss) Arm ACS, have ACS burst in, T & ACS shoot it out, OC/CCW draw and some also engage ACS, while some retreat with unarmed Ss providing escort.
Scenario 4: ACS realizes T and OC/CCW are in classroom and armed and decides to go somewhere else.
Supporting documentation and statistics can be provided.
Your son can use some of his friends to act this out, but he should swear them to secrecy
He will need: "scream queens," "drama queens to die horrible deaths," "LAC to be OC/CCW," "a teacher-type," and a "bad guy"The nerf gun ammo used should be dabbed in colored powder so "hits" can be seen/registered.
If they were older, paintball guns could be used, but he will probably need another project at some later date
MyGreenGuns
Member
He could diagram the mechanics of an average autoloader. Show how the bullet feeds, action closes, trigger releases the hammer (or striker), hammer hits primer, primer ignites powder, powder pushes projectile, projectile spins in the rifling, powder blast cycles the slide, slide ejects casing, slide grabs new shell.
Or maybe how rifling in a barrel increases projectile accuracy.
Or maybe the evolution from muzzleloaders to cartriges.
He should DEFINATELY have the gun rules listed somewhere, even if its not relavant to his final project. There will be a lot of kids who are sheltered from firearms, that will be interested in his project.
My school wouldnt even let me bring dry ice! Hope you post pix of his project!
Or maybe how rifling in a barrel increases projectile accuracy.
Or maybe the evolution from muzzleloaders to cartriges.
He should DEFINATELY have the gun rules listed somewhere, even if its not relavant to his final project. There will be a lot of kids who are sheltered from firearms, that will be interested in his project.
My school wouldnt even let me bring dry ice!
Hope you post pix of his project!Jenrick
Member
First off if your child wishes to do a project involving firearms or ballistics in some way let him. Secondly do not underestimate the knowledge and capabilities for an 8th grader to study something. My 8th grade year my school sent several people, myself included to the state science fair on things including the desired genetic characteristic and methodology of breeding africanized honey bee resistant local bees, filtering water using non-energetic means to decrease particulate/PH/pathogen counts (mine), and a mechanical rather then electro-mechanical version of the Enigma coding machine. What I saw at the state fair were a lot of projects that would honestly be beyond the majority of people I went to college with. As was posted above, let your child be challenged! It's how we learn and grow as thinkers.
Ask your son to pick one measurable thing related to firearms. It could be temperature, trajectory, penetration, shot weight, bore diameter, etc. Now figure out an experiment you can do that uses that one measurable thing. For instance does the ambient temperature effect the trajectory of given round? How about the pattern of a shotgun?
See what he comes up with, let his imagination run wild on coming up with ideas then trim out those that are logistically unfeasible. Oh and keep us posted
-Jenrick
Ask your son to pick one measurable thing related to firearms. It could be temperature, trajectory, penetration, shot weight, bore diameter, etc. Now figure out an experiment you can do that uses that one measurable thing. For instance does the ambient temperature effect the trajectory of given round? How about the pattern of a shotgun?
See what he comes up with, let his imagination run wild on coming up with ideas then trim out those that are logistically unfeasible. Oh and keep us posted
-Jenrick
I remember a college physics course where the TA rigged an electromagnet that held a plush toy monkey (with a thin iron plate sewn on his head) high on a pole (his "tree"). A spring-driven rifle (one of those that fires a 3 inch plastic ball) is then aimed at Curious George, with an extremely thin wire across the muzzle.
The scenario: someone is hunting poor Curious George. As the hunter fires, George jumps from the tree straight down--what happens?
Answer: the bullet hits George every time, because the bullet and George fall at the same rate, due to gravity. With a slow moving "bullet" and enough distance, you can get a nice bullet path arc, so that the bullet hits George just before he hits the ground!
Mechanics: as the ball leaves the toy gun, it breaks the thin wire across the muzzle; that interrupts the electricity to the magnet, so George begins to fall as the ball leaves the gun. As long as the barrel is pointed right at George, gravity will do the rest.
They may not allow a toy gun in school. Maybe you could video the set-up working at home, and then play the video. I'm sure some would be horrified at shooting poor Curious George.
Or it may be too advanced. But it was one of the neatest little demos I ever saw.
This. If you can pull it off.
Sent from my LG-P999 using Tapatalk
DataMonkey
Member
Stick to a gun related project if that's what the kid wants.
But read the requirements. Most science projects require you to develop a hypothesis and test for that hypothesis. You then have to draw a conclusion from your test(s). You also need a control group.
Idea: If you can find enough of those old fashioned phone books, get them. Tear the covers off but leave the bound. Onion skin is a fairly consistent thickness and shear strength (but this assumption must be noted). Draw 1" squares (or whatever...maybe you determine 2" is better). You're going to measure the penetration of various rounds (pick your caliber (the larger the caliber, the larger the square -- you want to ensure target deformity from a previous round doesn't interfere with a subsequent round).
Use a match grade ammo for all test since you aren't a reloader. Call the manufacturer and get all the specs on each ammo. Either use a consistent bullet weight or powder charge and vary the other (note different powders by different manufacturers would have to be noted in conclusions, especially if your hypothesis is wrong). Shoot the squares. Take video of the target. If you miss a square and it crosses the boxes, the original hits can count, but not the violated round.
Move the next set of targets to a different distance. How did the round penetrate? Are the rounds shaped differently? Could BC have an effect?
Make sure to shoot enough of each type of ammo. Use a spreadsheet to record the shot fired, distance, penetration or if was uncounted due to violation of a square. Maybe you stick to averages and don't do any hardcore statistics...but those are the types of things you can add to the high school project.
The more the kid enjoys the project, the better the project will turn out. Believe me, in high school when you do ballistics projects, you get scholarship money if they are any good. Might as well start thinking ahead now
But read the requirements. Most science projects require you to develop a hypothesis and test for that hypothesis. You then have to draw a conclusion from your test(s). You also need a control group.
Idea: If you can find enough of those old fashioned phone books, get them. Tear the covers off but leave the bound. Onion skin is a fairly consistent thickness and shear strength (but this assumption must be noted). Draw 1" squares (or whatever...maybe you determine 2" is better). You're going to measure the penetration of various rounds (pick your caliber (the larger the caliber, the larger the square -- you want to ensure target deformity from a previous round doesn't interfere with a subsequent round).
Use a match grade ammo for all test since you aren't a reloader. Call the manufacturer and get all the specs on each ammo. Either use a consistent bullet weight or powder charge and vary the other (note different powders by different manufacturers would have to be noted in conclusions, especially if your hypothesis is wrong). Shoot the squares. Take video of the target. If you miss a square and it crosses the boxes, the original hits can count, but not the violated round.
Move the next set of targets to a different distance. How did the round penetrate? Are the rounds shaped differently? Could BC have an effect?
Make sure to shoot enough of each type of ammo. Use a spreadsheet to record the shot fired, distance, penetration or if was uncounted due to violation of a square. Maybe you stick to averages and don't do any hardcore statistics...but those are the types of things you can add to the high school project.
The more the kid enjoys the project, the better the project will turn out. Believe me, in high school when you do ballistics projects, you get scholarship money if they are any good. Might as well start thinking ahead now
Jenrick
Member
You know the more I think about it, the more curious I am about the effect of ambient temperature on shot patterns. I know what it does to a rifle bullets trajectory and velocity, and what it should do to the velocity of the a pellet. How this actually effects the pattern I haven't a clue.
Regardless, make sure his experiment fits the requirements, and make sure he has fun.
-Jenrick
Regardless, make sure his experiment fits the requirements, and make sure he has fun.
-Jenrick
Fir Fer
Member
Trick shot
He could do the science of a trick shot.
This cannot miss trick would be easy for your son to do with a .22 auto loader. You take two bottles, set one on top of the other. I used to use Coke bottles, but any two like bottles will work. The distance does not matter, depends on if your using a handgun or a rifle. You aim at the bottom bottle, pull the trigger twice. Both bottles will break. Looks impressive. After he shows the video, he can explain how it works.
He could do the science of a trick shot.
This cannot miss trick would be easy for your son to do with a .22 auto loader. You take two bottles, set one on top of the other. I used to use Coke bottles, but any two like bottles will work. The distance does not matter, depends on if your using a handgun or a rifle. You aim at the bottom bottle, pull the trigger twice. Both bottles will break. Looks impressive. After he shows the video, he can explain how it works.
Prototypeperson
Member
It might be cool to make a "chronograph" by hanging a big log (that has been weighed) and shooting it with a certain load and showing the mathematics of how the length of swing from the log, combined with the known weight of the projectile and the log itself can demonstrate the velocity of the bullet? Some pretty serious math for 8th graders, but cool none-the-less.
pikid89
Member
EDIT TO THANK ROADCHOADE FOR CORRECTING MY CALCULATION ERRORS... I fell into a ballistics trap and i have now seen the error of my ways
The experiment design is still sound, and i feel now an even better experiment to demonstrate external ballistics and momentum.
I concur with data monkey
these 8th grade science projects are not a "lets do something cool then just explain it"
they are and examination of the scientific process primarily, and the topic of the project is secondary
the student basically has to start with a question, think of a hypothesis, test the hypothesis by testing variables against the original constant, and then observe the results to determine whether or not the hypothesis was correct or not.
one can't think of a science fair project by saying this would be a cool experiment, you have to come up with a question, then a hypothesis (if i do this then this will happen) then design an experiment to either prove or disprove the hypothesis
ex.
Question: How will changing the weight of a projectile, given a constant muzzle velocity, an initial bore angle parallel to the level surface of the earth, and a constant distance to the target, change the external ballistics of the projectile.
Hypothesis: As I increase the bullet weight, the bullet will fall further from parallel to the initial bore angle faster, due to the increased mass over the constant. Alternatively, If I decrease the projectile weight, the trajectory will remain closer to parallel with the level angle of the bore for a longer time and distance, due to the decreased mass as compared to the constant.
With help from a reloader friend/gunshop with a chrono/etc... develop a load of .38 special from a revolver with (min 4", 6 or 8 would be better) using 158 grain bullet as constant, the loads do not have to be real powerful, but try to develop a load that the velocity at the muzzle can be duplicated using a 130 grain bullet as well as 200 grain bullet. The slower you push them, the more dramatic the results will be.
Experiment: Using vice or clamp of some sort, secure the revolver so that muzzle rise variable is eliminated, as heavier bullets can recoil enough to raise the point of impact. Shoot a 158 grain bullets at a large piece of cardboard aimed (aimed only for the X-axis, the Y-axis, or bore angle, should be 0 degrees or perfectly level with the ground) at a vertical line designated for that particular trial. Mark the hit then repeat for the 130 grain bullet, as well as the 200 grain bullet, being sure to use the same trial line for each series of three bullets. Repeat each trial at least 5 or 10 times...the more trials you have, the more accurate the experiment will be, in order to account for uncontrollable variables, like gunpowder variances.
Ill let you and your son to draw the conclusions, but just remember, control the variables as much as possible. To have a valid argument and hypothesis, you can only change one variable. In this case it's the bullet weight, thusly, the muzzle velocity, initial trajectory angle, barrel length, and recoil-ability, must be controlled and reproduced for every trial.
Use graphs to show the trajectory, and take lots of pictures and use diagrams to show the set up and experiment etc...
I feel like this would be a fun, interesting project, and would be captivating enough for 8th graders, and have enough science and repeatability to wow the judges at higher levels of competition
(I wish i had thought up this experiment when I was in eighth grade, not a senior at the University of Florida :banghead: )
here is a diagram of the proposed target and a diagram of the theoretical trajectories given the variables and constants
The experiment design is still sound, and i feel now an even better experiment to demonstrate external ballistics and momentum.
I concur with data monkey
these 8th grade science projects are not a "lets do something cool then just explain it"
they are and examination of the scientific process primarily, and the topic of the project is secondary
the student basically has to start with a question, think of a hypothesis, test the hypothesis by testing variables against the original constant, and then observe the results to determine whether or not the hypothesis was correct or not.
one can't think of a science fair project by saying this would be a cool experiment, you have to come up with a question, then a hypothesis (if i do this then this will happen) then design an experiment to either prove or disprove the hypothesis
ex.
Question: How will changing the weight of a projectile, given a constant muzzle velocity, an initial bore angle parallel to the level surface of the earth, and a constant distance to the target, change the external ballistics of the projectile.
Hypothesis: As I increase the bullet weight, the bullet will fall further from parallel to the initial bore angle faster, due to the increased mass over the constant. Alternatively, If I decrease the projectile weight, the trajectory will remain closer to parallel with the level angle of the bore for a longer time and distance, due to the decreased mass as compared to the constant.
With help from a reloader friend/gunshop with a chrono/etc... develop a load of .38 special from a revolver with (min 4", 6 or 8 would be better) using 158 grain bullet as constant, the loads do not have to be real powerful, but try to develop a load that the velocity at the muzzle can be duplicated using a 130 grain bullet as well as 200 grain bullet. The slower you push them, the more dramatic the results will be.
Experiment: Using vice or clamp of some sort, secure the revolver so that muzzle rise variable is eliminated, as heavier bullets can recoil enough to raise the point of impact. Shoot a 158 grain bullets at a large piece of cardboard aimed (aimed only for the X-axis, the Y-axis, or bore angle, should be 0 degrees or perfectly level with the ground) at a vertical line designated for that particular trial. Mark the hit then repeat for the 130 grain bullet, as well as the 200 grain bullet, being sure to use the same trial line for each series of three bullets. Repeat each trial at least 5 or 10 times...the more trials you have, the more accurate the experiment will be, in order to account for uncontrollable variables, like gunpowder variances.
Ill let you and your son to draw the conclusions, but just remember, control the variables as much as possible. To have a valid argument and hypothesis, you can only change one variable. In this case it's the bullet weight, thusly, the muzzle velocity, initial trajectory angle, barrel length, and recoil-ability, must be controlled and reproduced for every trial.
Use graphs to show the trajectory, and take lots of pictures and use diagrams to show the set up and experiment etc...
I feel like this would be a fun, interesting project, and would be captivating enough for 8th graders, and have enough science and repeatability to wow the judges at higher levels of competition
(I wish i had thought up this experiment when I was in eighth grade, not a senior at the University of Florida :banghead: )
here is a diagram of the proposed target and a diagram of the theoretical trajectories given the variables and constants
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I suggest that a science project that involves shooting a .22 rifle at objects made of different materials would be fun for your kid and interesting to the other kids. Interesting hypotheses could be made around: how the target is supported, how thick it is, what it is made of, whether or not it breaks, how far it penetrates, or whether it makes an interesting/artistic splatter pattern (say if the objects are fruits/vegs) against a posterboard backing...
pikid89
Member
^ that might make for a good oooh ahhh project but an experiment with that many variables won't impress the judges
pikid89
Member
I wrote it at 330am so my brain was not firing on all cylinders i guess
Ok ill admit it...i was wrong
I punched it into a ballistics calculator and it lools like the heavier the bullet, the higher the impact given the other constants.
But, in my defense, this makes it an even better experiment, as a bunch of 8th graders would prob fall into the same trap as me, and forget to consider momentum
Ok ill admit it...i was wrong
I punched it into a ballistics calculator and it lools like the heavier the bullet, the higher the impact given the other constants.
But, in my defense, this makes it an even better experiment, as a bunch of 8th graders would prob fall into the same trap as me, and forget to consider momentum
svtruth
Member
+1 for Newton
You could suspend the rifle with two hinged arms and measure how high it swings in recoil.
Similarly a hinged target that retains the bullet can measure impact energy.
The heights of the rifle sled and the target should be inversely proportional to their masses.
A durable target will allow multiple replicates for scientific rigor.
P=MV
Momentum equals mass times velocity.
Wit the mass of the projefctile known, he can calculate the velocity, check against chronograph and/or cartridge box.
If the results are not exactly equal he can have a nice discussion of sources of error, friction in hinges, velocity loss with distance, etc.
Good luck.
You could suspend the rifle with two hinged arms and measure how high it swings in recoil.
Similarly a hinged target that retains the bullet can measure impact energy.
The heights of the rifle sled and the target should be inversely proportional to their masses.
A durable target will allow multiple replicates for scientific rigor.
P=MV
Momentum equals mass times velocity.
Wit the mass of the projefctile known, he can calculate the velocity, check against chronograph and/or cartridge box.
If the results are not exactly equal he can have a nice discussion of sources of error, friction in hinges, velocity loss with distance, etc.
Good luck.
Big Juan
Member
Sir Isaac Newton
Newton's Laws - particularly Newton's third law: for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. Recoil could be demonstrated via graphics and charts with as little or much documentation as you like. Slow-motion shots like used on "Top Shot" could be demos or you could rig your own. The idea of suspending a rifle and firing it remotely could be..
Newton's Laws - particularly Newton's third law: for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. Recoil could be demonstrated via graphics and charts with as little or much documentation as you like. Slow-motion shots like used on "Top Shot" could be demos or you could rig your own. The idea of suspending a rifle and firing it remotely could be..
Mike OTDP
Member
Jorg had a good idea. You illustrate the effect of gravity by shooting the same gun at the same target, using the same ammo and aim point, at varying distances.
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