Suicide by Cop, Town of Gates, NY

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Taurus 66

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Police said Wednesday that a Gates' officer fatally shot a man only after the man drew his weapon.

Kevin King, 41, was found dead inside his Hazelhurst Drive apartment Tuesday afternoon after police say gunshots were fired.

Police said King had just been released from a rehabilitation program at Highland Hospital. They went to the apartment after receiving a tip that King had said he wanted police to shoot him.

"Initially, there was some conversation through the doorway with the gentleman," said Gates Police Chief Tom Roche. "As long as we're talking, we're going to keep talking. But at one point, he opens the door and points the rifle at Officer John Auberger. Officer Auberger discharged his .45-caliber, semiautomatic weapon and shot the individual."

Auberger is the son of Greece town supervisor John Auberger. He is a 10-year veteran of the Gates Police Department and prior to that was a Rochester police officer.

"I think in all honesty we have a new term in the country that we kind of talk about within the law enforcement community," Roche said. "Maybe it's time to tell the public that sometimes people commit suicide with our guns. It's very difficult."

The Gates Police Department said they will conduct an internal investigation of the incident and then compare notes with the sheriff's department, which assisted with a SWAT team.

The Monroe County District Attorney's Office will also review the case, and decide at a later date whether to present it to a grand jury.


http://www.rnews.com/TopStory_2004.cfm?cmd=top&rnews_story_type=18
 
I read about that this morning. The dude who was killed had been talking about doing exactly this for weeks before hand with his girlfriend... Yep. I guess the gene pool is that much cleaner.
 
Well, certainly not to excuse this kind of behavior, but I would add that these days "the system" can get its claws so deep into a man that death might seem preferable. If he associates the police with the system that has its claws in him, he might wish to go down in a shootout with a policeman or two, rather than just popping himself.

We are getting to a point in this country where it is not at all uncommon to be in a position where the government, at whatever level, and for whatever reason, feels that you need to have your life micromanaged by one or more of its agencies, and not everyone has the kind of disposition that can deal with this well. Some people will either live free or die (as the saying goes), and that, I think, is a possible explanation for the increasing number of "suicide by cop" cases that we are seeing. Again, I don't know the specifics of this case, but I would be willing to bet that this guy was in some way under the management of some agency of government, for one reason or another, which is becoming all too common a situation for an increasing number of American citizens.

Just as an example, if you are a divorced man with children, you will often find that the government is now in charge of various aspects of your life. Government, as we know, is not our friend. Government is force, and when it deals with individuals, it uses that force to whatever degree it requires to get its way. At one time the institution of marriage and family life was a buffer between the government and the individual, but that has been largely done away with in our country.
 
I just don't get "suicide by cop". If you want to go just wrap some towels around you head so you don't get brains on the wall, put the gun in your mouth and pull the trigger. Be a man. Why make some poor cop have to deal with the psychological aftermath of having to put you away.
 
We just had a "Suicide by cop" here in Granite City a few days ago. Shame.

-Bill
 
There are two types of crazy people in this world, those that are crazy and those that think they are crazy.

The ones who are clinically crazy can be dealt with if the proper approach is taken, deal with them on a level they can understand and get them help. In the end they are just scared because they truly don’t know what exactly is happening to them, they must be reassured, a bond established with them and help must be sought.

The ones who think they are crazy will hurt you in the blink of an eye, these are the ones who “commit sympathy” not suicide. They are deeply troubled but not crazy.

They tend to be the ones who have several suicide attempts under their belt, constantly become violent at the drop of a hat for no apparent reason, and end up going to jail many times for such crimes as Terroristic Threats.

In my experience these are the ones who will hurt you and quick.

These are the ones who will force your hand as a cop into a deadly force situation because they do not have the balls to face the world and the hand it has dealt them, nor the balls to end it all by themselves.

These are the ones we deal with most often, the ones who are constantly in the news on the receiving end of a tazer or ASP baton for more often than not truly stupid stuff which in the end brings a critical eye down on the cops because of the events that led up to whatever level of force was used, such as in this case, this genetic throwback going around telling people he wants the cops to shoot him.

Normal folks don't make those kinds of statements, and one can only expect the law to wonder if this guy is indeed crazy or just stupid...
 
Making your intentions for someone to pull the trigger for you is cowardiss but, in all reality....you open the door and point a firearm at the cop and the war is on.

Guess who loses....no real brainer on this one.
 
As scary as is the mind of anyone who commits suicide by cop, as scary as is the prospect of having to live with such after pulling the trigger, as scary as is the ineptitude of our mental health system not to have taken this guy off the street and locked him up before this happened (all because anti-government people complained that the G was putting away too many of the mentally ill) - there is even something more scary.

It is extremely scary how this possibly is about to turn into another government bashing thread. Is there any topic on this whole site that a government detractor cannot cause to go off on a wild tangent which immediately throws some of the blame at the government and its invasiveness of private life for such an act? If it is not one conspiracy theory then it seems to be some other type of ultimate take over of the mind and soul by the government type of a theory, or yet another the government is into everything and therefore at fault theory. Amazing how it is the government that is always at fault when seen through the eyes of some people. Tell me what form of government would be better and; please explain your pick to me rationally. Also, if you answer none then explain that to me rationally.

I think the bottom line of why someone does not pop themselves, and tries to do it through one acting unwittingly on their behalf (such as in suicide by cop where they try to get the police to do it for them) is because our society as a whole (regardless of our type of government) has become one in which people do not take responsibility. This has reached out so absurdly far as to make it so that people cannot even kill themselves when committing suicide; they have to leave behind some degree of responsibility on the shoulders of another. As a result of their own inability to be responsible for their own actions they have the police vicariously live out their own guilt and remorse for them once the act of suicide by cop has been completed; they make the officer feel responsible. Who better to feel this for them than an authority figure or a public servant as they see it. It is part of their sickness, there really is no rational way of making the police responsible for an actual suicide by cop except; maybe it seems "rational" in the minds of others who shun acceptance of responsibility. Some of you guys just help them to misplace the responsibility for their demise when you immediately jump on the G as the ultimate evil doer who is responsible to some degree for all such events.

Absolutely flabbergasting.

Sincerely,
Glenn B
 
Ya know, after thinking about all the reports I read on this, you should have titled .45 acp lovers do not read this thread :evil: because some of the other big Rochester news stations reported that after King was shot 3 times with Auberger's .45, (a sig I believe), he retreated into the house. ;)
 
I think the bottom line of why someone does not pop themselves, and tries to do it through one acting unwittingly on their behalf (such as in suicide by cop where they try to get the police to do it for them) is because our society as a whole (regardless of our type of government) has become one in which people do not take responsibility. This has reached out so absurdly far as to make it so that people cannot even kill themselves when committing suicide; they have to leave behind some degree of responsibility on the shoulders of another. As a result of their own inability to be responsible for their own actions they have the police vicariously live out their own guilt and remorse for them once the act of suicide by cop has been completed; they make the officer feel responsible. Who better to feel this for them than an authority figure or a public servant as they see it. It is part of their sickness, there really is no rational way of making the police responsible for an actual suicide by cop except; maybe it seems "rational" in the minds of others who shun acceptance of responsibility.
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I agree completely with this. Responsibility for one's self and one's community are values that have been repeatedly attacked and downplayed in modern society. The idea that "The Man" is keeping you down is an easy way to abdicate responsibility for the mistakes you have made in your own life. This is one reason that I rail so hard against the socialistic nanny state and it's supporters, because it fosters this type of victim mentality.

The toll that this kind of action takes on the officer that had to shoot must be terrible. It is the act of a completely selfish and narcissistic person.
 
Not cop bashing - I'm genuinely curious - is there a reason why the police feel like they need to go and confront this kind of guy?

Did he break any laws?

The article simply says "...[police] went to the apartment after receiving a tip that King had said he wanted police to shoot him..." I know the news doesn't tell the whole story or even nessesarily an accurate one, but assuming the absence of a specific threat or violation of statute - why not just ignore the pathetic creature? (after all - that's what local police do when I give them a tip about the neighborhood kids vandalizing my fence...)

Seems to me if a guy is "itchen for a fight" with the police - the smartest thing for the police to do might be to just ignore him?
 
It would be nice if the police could ignore someone like this, but think of the backlash against the police that would occur when this man went out and hurt someone or robbed a bank or something similar to "get the police's attention." I'm sure there would even be people such as the victims family who would try to sue the police office for not responding if the guy grew the balls to shoot himself.
 
why not just ignore the pathetic creature
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The answer is realy pretty simple. If the guy is ignored long enough he will not go away and, maybe he will erupt in a public place. That would cause more hazards to the public and more problems for all (except maybe the guy trying to get himself killed). The police go to the residence of a person like this because they want to prevent as many problems as possible. He has already made his possibly violent intent known to others. He apparently is obviously irrational. He is apparently suicidal. (Suicide by the way or at least attempted suicide is a crime in many if not all locations and his intent was to do pretty much just that.) Guys in his state of mind have been known to snap and hurt not only themselves but others as well. They also often wind yup having access to firearms or other weapons, at least the ones who think along the lines of wanting the police to shoot them. At the least they are badly mentally disturbed with a high potential for violence or threat of violence.

So who gets called in? Not the paramedics because it is not regularly there job to have to confront potentially violent people (at least not until the police have subdued them if necessary). Not the fire department because that is just not their gig. Not the mental health authorities such as a psychologist or social worker to pay a house call because this guy already has implied violence. Guess who is left. Yup, you guessed right officer Joe Friendly - the guy much of the public believes gets paid to get hurt (although that is nonsense).

The sad thing is that no one went to him weeks before with the ability to have him committed to a mental institution. (Then again maybe the police had talked to him before - we do not know from the article that was shown. That is another thing - a reporter reports what he wants to include in his article - usually not all of the facts by a long shot.) New Yorkers can thank the state for it being very difficult to have the mentally committed, even if for their own good. It has had a lasting effect over the years. So even I will admit that government has some role to play in these events - but the act itself likely was not caused, carried out, helped along by the government or by an evil conspiracy of the government. The government did not point that rifle at the police officer or make the guy do such.

Too bad about it all. For the guy who got shot (a victim of his own mental illness I would think) and for the police officer who shot him. It is a sad state of affairs.
best regards,
Glenn B
 
Glen asks: Tell me what form of government would be better and; please explain your pick to me rationally.
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Glen, this is probably not the best post in which to discuss this, but since you asked, I for one would prefer to live under the form of national government laid out in an apparently obscure and little known document called the United States Constitution. If we did, approximately 90% of what the federal government does today would be prohibited to it. Is that a rational enough explanation? ;)
 
The Real Hawkeye,

We already do that now (live under the law of the land - the Constitution) even if not perfectly.

The thig about the constitution is that it is open to interpretation and to change. I tend to think you disagree, so why not start a thread about under the political header. I would be happy to join the dicussion. Probably be fun for us and informative too as long as everyome maintains a certain amount of respect; I think we could do that. Although I will admit I don't know if that topic would be welcome on this site I think it might squeak by the mods if kept respectful.

All the best,
Glenn B
 
This might be an off the wall observation. Is it possible that in some cases, suicide by cop is done so that the family can collect the life insurance? I don't think insurance companies pay benefits after a self suicide, but would if the person was shot by a cop. Desperate people do strange things and probably wouldn't consider the consequences for the cop involved.
 
Is it possible that in some cases, suicide by cop is done so that the family can collect the life insurance? I don't think insurance companies pay benefits after a self suicide, but would if the person was shot by a cop.
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Someone might try this but, some policies possibly would negate any payment due to a person's demise while in the commission of a felony.
 
Yeah, someone called it right when they said the police HAVE TO go and confront these guys--there's just too much risk if they let them go about their business. Who knows what they might do? In my local area we have had two "shoot-em-ups" in the past three years. In both cases no one was killed, fortunately. Both were pretty clearly attempted "suicides by cop." Both shooters were loners in their 20's with histories of mental/emotional problems but no criminal records.

The first shooter fired off 70 rounds from an IntraTec AK in the downtown area one night--he shot out a lot of windows and it was just blind luck that he didn't kill any of the people in those buildings. The only people he targeted directly were cops. He shot at several cop cars and hit a sherrif's deputy in the hand. Tough judgement call, but the cops didn't call in a SWAT team to take him out. They cleared the streets and a K9 officer snuck up on him through an alley and got the drop on him with the dog. (I guess the shooter's deathwish stopped short of being ripped apart by a police dog.) He tried to commit suicide in jail, and his lawyers were preparing an insanity defense, but he suddenly decided to plead guilty and got 20 to life. If he had actually killed anybody, the Monday-morning quarterbacks would've reamed the cops for not taking him out. Tough call.

The other case was similar--the shooter went into a mall on a Sunday afternoon with another AK clone and started shooting up stores. An Army recruiter got hit in the knee and a shopper was hit in the leg by a ricochet, but in general the shooter wasn't aiming at people. He only got through one 30-round magazine; some store employees (unarmed) were stalking him and tackled him while he was reloading. Supposedly he suffers from depression, had been contemplating suicide, and had decided this was the way to do it. His case hasn't come to trial yet.

My feeling is that they opt for "suicide by cop" because it seems heroic in some twisted way. Putting the gun to your own head seems cowardly, but going down with guns blazing feeds into some crazed fantasy of glory, like the ending of a Western or gangster flick. The irony is that the second scenario is the really cowardly one, because you don't have to pull the trigger on the shot that's going to kill you. The "moment of truth" is in someone else's hands.

It's all really sad. Better mental health care would help, but I'm afraid that this phenomenon will never completely disappear. It has happened in one form or another throughout human history.
 
"Oppressors can tyrannize only when they can achieve a standing army, an enslaved press, and a disarmed populous."
-James Madison
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Absolutely true. Rome is a perfect example of this. It was only after their army became a standing professional one that it became possible for a general to threaten popular self-government. Julius broke long standing Roman custom by marching his professional army into Rome. Caesar Augustus (Octavian) broke long standing tradition as well by creating the Praetorian Guard, the ancient Roman equivalent of the Secret Service. This is why the founders of our nation feared standing armies and Praetorian Guards. It is a sure means of transforming a free republic into despotism, especially when combined with federal laws limiting what kinds of arms the people my possess (which, by the way, is precisely why the Second Amendment was added to the Constitution).
 
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