I've been eyeballing this rifle for a while. Been wanting to get into a tactical style rifle for practice, in .308 to be more affordable and not burn through barrels just practicing for hunting when I get the .300 Win Mag out. http://www.winchesterguns.com/products/catalog/historic-itemdetail.asp?id=535143220 Not sure if anybody has this one and could let me know if the barrel on it is suitable for a good MOA rifle out to realistically 5-700 yards. If it is not I will likely look at a cheaper Model 70, likely the ultimate shadow, and pull the barrel and get a proper barrel for the job. Also nice that it's set up for a muzzle brake, although with .308 I don't really see one as nessecary, It may be nice to have though I've never used one. The stock would go and I plan on putting the barreled action in a McMillan A4 stock. Set up with a bipod and a 15x or so optic. My main concern is I'd gladly spend more on this (about $400 more) than a cheaper one and have the barrel I need, as that's about what I figure a proper barrel would cost if not more. I also am not too crazy about getting a stock cut for one contour barrel, and having to get a different stock or re-work it down the road. I think you guys know where I'm getting at if not then I can try and describe it better.
Suitable barrel for long range?
- Thread starter Speedgoat
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To add on, I seriousley thought about going the route of a FN TSR or SPR, but I'm not crazy about the Houge stock, for some reason I've just got my heart set on the McMillan. Also they've got a model with a fluted barrel. I've not been around them much but will a fluted barrel outweigh the bennefits of a heavy barrel?
jerkface11
Member
A fluted barrel will be more accurate than a non fluted barrel of the same WEIGHT.
dubbleA
Member
jerkface11 said:
That's a new one on me, if you could please give an explanation on how this is true. Many accuracy records exist that were shot with plain nonfluted
tubes.
I have had a FN SPR A1 for 6 years now. It came with a Mc Millan A3 I believe. It's a decent rifle, the heavy contour 24" chrome lined barrel is a breeze to clean. It a controlled round feed and it's M70 style trigger is easily adjusted toa nice crisp 2lb pull.
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^ weight isn't the only factor in making a barrel accurate, but what he's saying is correct. The flutes keep a certain amount of stiffness while cutting weight. So if we were to take two 22" barrels of the same weight, then the fluted barrel will have a thicker cross section where the ribs are than the non-fluted barrel. Thickness is good. However, if we were to beef up the non-fluted barrel's exterior diameter to that of the fluted barrel's then the non-fluted barrel would be better (that is to say, more accurate with less flex. Better depends on what you need the gun to do)
That barrel on that model of Winchester model 70 is awfully long. It is however, the same twist and length of the M40A3/A5 (USMC sniper rifle). I've shot the M40A3 out to 1 mile, and the real limitation is the .308 round. In the 5-700 yard range you should be just fine as long as the barrel is quality. I have no idea who makes the barrel for that gun, but the Marine Corps uses Schneider barrels on the M40's
You may want to pay a visit to http://www.snipercentral.com/scriflepackagedetails.phtml?packageid=1 I have no idea how long the turn-around is but it looks like they give you plenty of options in order to build you exactly what you want so that you aren't buying a rifle and then immediately throwing the stock away.
That barrel on that model of Winchester model 70 is awfully long. It is however, the same twist and length of the M40A3/A5 (USMC sniper rifle). I've shot the M40A3 out to 1 mile, and the real limitation is the .308 round. In the 5-700 yard range you should be just fine as long as the barrel is quality. I have no idea who makes the barrel for that gun, but the Marine Corps uses Schneider barrels on the M40's
You may want to pay a visit to http://www.snipercentral.com/scriflepackagedetails.phtml?packageid=1 I have no idea how long the turn-around is but it looks like they give you plenty of options in order to build you exactly what you want so that you aren't buying a rifle and then immediately throwing the stock away.
USSR
Member
Speedgoat,
Seeing as I have had 3 custom built tactical/match rifles built on the Winchester Model 70 platform, I will tell you what I have found. First, disregard the comment "fluted barrel will be more accurate than a non fluted barrel of the same WEIGHT." Fluted barrels do have some advantages, but being more accurate per se is not one of them. And, I say this having had 2 barrels fluted. The only thing you should consider fluting a barrel for, is to properly balance your rifle by making it less muzzle heavy. Back to your original post. First, factory barrels are a crap shoot. You may get a good one; you may not. I have found that the primary differences between a factory barrel and a quality aftermarket barrel (aside from accuracy) is: the factory barrel will require cleaning to remove copper deposits long before the high quality barrel will, and the high quality barrels tend to deliver higher velocities than a factory barrel. A muzzle break on a .308 is totally unnecessary. Lastly, you are correct in your assessment about the problem of getting a McMillan stock for the factory barrel contour, and then getting a new barrel with a different contour. Since you intend to get a McMillan stock (good choice, I have them on 3 rifles), I would suggest you bite the bullet and start with a high quality, heavy contour barrel. Below is my first M70 build with a McMillan A2 stock. Hope that helps.
Don
Seeing as I have had 3 custom built tactical/match rifles built on the Winchester Model 70 platform, I will tell you what I have found. First, disregard the comment "fluted barrel will be more accurate than a non fluted barrel of the same WEIGHT." Fluted barrels do have some advantages, but being more accurate per se is not one of them. And, I say this having had 2 barrels fluted. The only thing you should consider fluting a barrel for, is to properly balance your rifle by making it less muzzle heavy. Back to your original post. First, factory barrels are a crap shoot. You may get a good one; you may not. I have found that the primary differences between a factory barrel and a quality aftermarket barrel (aside from accuracy) is: the factory barrel will require cleaning to remove copper deposits long before the high quality barrel will, and the high quality barrels tend to deliver higher velocities than a factory barrel. A muzzle break on a .308 is totally unnecessary. Lastly, you are correct in your assessment about the problem of getting a McMillan stock for the factory barrel contour, and then getting a new barrel with a different contour. Since you intend to get a McMillan stock (good choice, I have them on 3 rifles), I would suggest you bite the bullet and start with a high quality, heavy contour barrel. Below is my first M70 build with a McMillan A2 stock. Hope that helps.
Don
jerkface11
Member
I didn't say they are more accurate. I said they're more accurate than a non fluted barrel of equal weight. Simply because they are stiffer. My precision rig has a 30" bull barrel from Mcgowen.
USSR
Member
jerkface11,
Just because one barrel is stiffer than another one, doesn't necessarily mean it will have more accuracy than the less stiff one. The type of rifling done (button, cut, or hammer forged), the quality of work done while boring, reaming, and rifling, as well as cutting the chamber come into play. You take a barrelmaker like Krieger or Obermeyer, or many others, and their barrels will put to shame many stiffer barrels from lesser manufacturers.
Don
Just because one barrel is stiffer than another one, doesn't necessarily mean it will have more accuracy than the less stiff one. The type of rifling done (button, cut, or hammer forged), the quality of work done while boring, reaming, and rifling, as well as cutting the chamber come into play. You take a barrelmaker like Krieger or Obermeyer, or many others, and their barrels will put to shame many stiffer barrels from lesser manufacturers.
Don
dubbleA
Member
Jerkface11 said:
Still a blanket statement like that is pretty bold.
Nawh, I'll agree with USSR on this one. There is much more to barrel accuracy than stiffness, though it does play a role.
BTW I have several 30+" barreled precision rifles(my latest build wears a 30 1/2" Krieger Straight 1.250" tube), I also have several precision rifles with fluted barrels. It's neither here nor there, they all shoot.
Back to the OP.
Here is my FNH SPR A1 .308 Win, they can probably be had in the $1500(rifle only) range. Again a good over the counter rifle with a good trigger, McMillan stock, CRF, 3 position saftey, chrome lined barrel Near 20moa base with 8-40 screws etc. Rifle did not come with bottom metal and AICS mags.
Strongbad
Member
All that plus fluting that is done wrong means it doesn't matter how stiff it makes it. If it induces barrel stresses (in a bad way), that barrel isn't going to shoot well.
Current Winchester barrels are very good. Shoot it out and by then you will have your own opinions on replacement barrels.
I shoot 24" 308 at 600 yards. I would not go 22" or 20" as you can't get the velocity up to a decent level.
I shoot 24" 308 at 600 yards. I would not go 22" or 20" as you can't get the velocity up to a decent level.
Sweet thanks for all your input. I'm starting to lean more now towards a bit more of a custom job with a barrel and such. I'm assuming FNH / Winchester doesn't jsut go selling M70 Actions now do they? If so its a well kept secret, anybody got some ins? I just got one of their M70 Alaskan models in .300 WM and I am fine with that MOA trigger they've got now, I even like it so far. I'm sure by the time my discipline as a shooter evolves to where I would want to adjust it further or order a aftermarket trigger the market will be available with them by that time at a later date. So I was studying their catalog and if I am unable to source a newer bare action, or come acrossed one (I'm dead set on a new style CRF) used at a good price to tear apart, it looks like I'll be ordering their cheapest model in .308 (ultimate shadow), I know (not fully understand though) that stainless is a better choice for barrel life, but are their any bennefits to spending the more buck on a stainless action? If for looks I'll forget it as for this being my "tacticool" rifle it'll probably eventually wear a paint job of Duracoat or something of the like. I also like the detatchable magazine that dubbleA has on his piece. I did a short bit of looking into those and was able to see the initial work on installing them can be sort of finicky, would a long action reciver be better suited for such a set up? Thanks again loads of info you guys are sharing.
USSR
Member
Speedgoat,
The way to go is buy a used rifle for your "donor" action, then sell all the parts you don't want to offset your total cost. If you are smart about this, you can end up having about $300 into your action. No real advantage to having a stainless steel receiver, so save your money. AFAIK, the aftermarket detachable magazines are strictly a short action thing. Regarding the "paint job", I do my own using a baked-on Teflon/Moly finish that has held up for about 12 years on the rifle I previously displayed. If you'd like, send me a PM or email and I will tell you how to do your own baked-on finish.
Don
The way to go is buy a used rifle for your "donor" action, then sell all the parts you don't want to offset your total cost. If you are smart about this, you can end up having about $300 into your action. No real advantage to having a stainless steel receiver, so save your money. AFAIK, the aftermarket detachable magazines are strictly a short action thing. Regarding the "paint job", I do my own using a baked-on Teflon/Moly finish that has held up for about 12 years on the rifle I previously displayed. If you'd like, send me a PM or email and I will tell you how to do your own baked-on finish.
Don
jerkface11
Member
I'm sorry I assumed you would realize I meant that the fluting would be the ONLY difference.
I've had my eye open for a used FN Winchester on the racks but haven't had much luck, that and any used gun stores here consist of a small, and I do mean small pawn shop, and I've had no luck. I'll be going east to Wichita this weekend, may throw in my CRPF 300 WSM I'm trying to get rid of and see if any of the Cabela's or Bass Pro's along the way will take it as a trade in. I've come to realize that this is going to get expensive especially once I get some glass for it. It's also starting to look like I'm wanting to put together what the M40 would have been had they used the Winchester 70 Action. I've heard that the Schneider barrels they use have been fine out to the 8,000-10,000 round count, Which sounds very good to me. Like I've said I have come to terms that this job is going to cost more than I first invisioned, but that's okay. If I end up getting a very good mid range rifle (when considering benchrest and all those doo-dads) then it will be money well spent. That being said I have heard that the 165-168 gr is a good bullet weight, if I were to kinda plan on that as my go-to round what barrel length and twist would some of you with similar rifles reccomend? Or is there another better loading you guys could recomend? Like I said realistically I think my setup I'll end up getting in to will be very good out at 5-700 yards, but I've been reading some people saying that out to 1k yards it will still be mighty effective?
MtnCreek
Member
I like the winchesters and understand why you would want to go that route. If you decided to go Remington, you could pick up a new adl short action for <$450 after tax and they're pretty easy to find. On twist rate, talk to your smith about what you're wanting the rifle to do and what you'll be shooting through it. IMHO, might as well get 1:10 because that'll give you the option of shooting the heaviest 30cal bullets available and still shoot the lighter ones too.
Good luck!
Good luck!
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