Super Redhawk Alaskan .454 Casull among other things...

[MCMXI]

Not only is there the chance of jamming the cylinder with a jumped bullet, but with H110/W296 it might be enough to affect positive ignition.

Yep, that's what happened with the 29.0gr load. The bullet from the fifth or sixth round jumped out enough to lock up the cylinder.

Still I'd try something like Federals or Remmies that are known to help with light primer strikes. Do you have the same problem with factory ammo as for FTFs? Is it the primers/spring or could it be primer seating depth?

I haven't shot much in the way of factory ammunition so the data set is small but I don't recall a FTF with any factory loads. I use the RCBS automatic priming tool and have for 8 years or so and it does a great job of properly seating primers so I don't think primer depth is an issue.

Here are the small rifle primers that I have on hand.

Federal GM205MAR - AR match primer
Winchester WSR
CCI 400 SRP
CCI 450 SRPM
CCI BR4

According to the article in the link below the CCI 400 primers have .020" thick cups compared to .025" for the CCI 450 primers so it should be worth trying 400s particularly since I'm not going to be up around 60ksi but rather sub 50ksi. The Winchester WSR primers are close to the 400s in terms of cup thickness. The temperature issue is important so I'll look into that once I've resolved the light strike issue.

http://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/primers-and-pressure-analysis/

I'm going to shoot three loads this morning i.e. 28.0gr, 28.5gr and 29.0gr and try to increase the crimp. The bullets are .455" in diameter and the cases are new so neck tension should be good.

 

[MCMXI]

Not sure if anyone is interested in my Alaskan ruminations but here goes ....

I shot the Alaskan again this past weekend and have almost fixed the bullet jump issue, I seem to have resolved the light strike issue by using CCI 400 primers but I've found another issue with regards to the XS sights.

I used CCI 400 primers for 24 rounds yesterday and didn't have a single light strike with 18 rounds shot using DA mode and the 12lb spring. I then reinstalled the 10lb spring and shot six more rounds in DA mode and had one light strike FTF so reinstalled the 12lb spring. I called CCI this morning to ask them if the 400 primer only differs by cup thickness or does it have less brisance compared to the 450 primer. A specialist there confirmed the cup thickness as .020" vs. .025" and mentioned that the 450 burns longer and hotter. He then went on to say that I shouldn't have any ignition issues with 28.0gr to 29.0gr of H110 since the Speer manual recommends standard small rifle primers for .454 Casull loads that use 32.0gr + of H110. I'll leave some loaded rounds in the freezer for a few days and then shoot them to see how they perform so that I can get some idea as to whether I'll have a problem in MT in the winter. Interestingly, based on velocity numbers yesterday which were actually a little higher for the 28.0gr and 29.0gr loads using these primers (could be due to better crimp), it might turn out that there's no downside to using CCI 400 primers since I'm in the 45ksi range and nowhere near 65ksi where thicker cups would reduce the chance of pierced primers.

Now to the sights. I've run out of rear sight adjustment with the XS sights shooting the 340gr load at 15 yards. I had them zeroed at 15 yards shooting a 300gr load and now bullets are landing 6" to 8" high. My options are to either cut a deeper V notch in the rear sight, get a taller front sight (not going to happen) or use the factory rear notch sight with the XS front sight like a standard sight set which is most likely what I'll do. I called XS and am waiting for their guy who develops their sights to call me back with ideas, thoughts etc.

As for crimp jump, the MBW WFN bullet has a nice crimp groove so I tried to get as much of the case to fold into the groove as possible. I might need to play around with the COAL to optimize this step but the results were definitely better. After shooting three rounds I opened the cylinder to inspect the three unfired rounds for each load (see sample below). I then shot two more rounds and inspected the last round prior to shooting. I did see some bullet jump but only a little so I'll try to increase the crimp and see if I can totally eliminate the issue.

The Simply Rugged holster and harness showed up today ... very nice! I did do a bit more work on the guts of the SRH Alaskan and removed some burrs, polished some mating surfaces, straightened the hammer strut and cleaned that stamped part up a fair amount. The revolver feels really good. Hogue sent me a replacement grip for the "defective" grip on my gun but not the Tamer model, just the standard one which is bit brutal on the hand when launching 340gr bullets at around 1,200 fps. Oh well, I can't complain since they did make the effort. I'm getting close on this Alaskan and am enjoying the journey .... mostly!

Montana Bullet Works 340gr WFN



Improved roll crimp using Lee FCD



Still some amount of bullet jump after shooting three rounds and some damage to the bullet on the left (not sure how that happened)



Load shown on left above after five rounds shot - no major change based on bullet jump shown above

 

[MCMXI]

One "final" update on this Alaskan ordeal. I reinstalled the factory rear notched sight last night, swapped the Hogue Tamer Monogrip for the standard GP100/SRH Hogue Monogrip, loaded up 12 rounds using 28.5gr of H110 and went out this morning before heading to work to get the sights adjusted. Bullet jump is still a slight issue with bullets moving maybe .005" to .010" (best guess based on shoot three and inspect three) but I'm going to order a taper crimp die and see if crimping in two step helps in any way i.e. taper crimp followed by a roll crimp. Referring to the target below shot at 15 yards offhand I'd like to say that I adjusted the sights during the string, but to be honest, the standard Hogue Monogrip is brutal with these 340gr 1,200 fps loads and that shot on the right was all me!! I got lucky with sight alignment and made no adjustment to the rear sight since three of the shots appear to be nicely centered. Once the replacement Tamer grip shows up it will go on the Alaskan and hopefully I can do much better. All in all though I'm pleased with where I'm at with this revolver. 1,200 fps with a hard cast bullet from a short barreled revolver with manageable recoil (with the Tamer grip), acceptable accuracy/precision, decent energy on target, that's fast to draw and pleasant to carry in a chest rig is a good thing.

The target below is printed on an 11" x 17" piece of paper.

 

[buck460XVR]

RCBS has a method of crimping in two steps for the really big boomers with it's roll crimp die. It came with the instructions for my .460 dies. Using jacketed bullets and a heavy gun, I never had to use it. I would be afraid heavily using a taper crimp die before/after the roll crimp die would only do what a FCD does sometimes with lead bullets....swag them down when crimping and only making matters worse.

 

[MCMXI]

I ordered a Redding taper crimp die yesterday. I read a thread where someone having similar issues used a taper crimp die first followed by a roll crimp die and had good results. It's worth a try before I break out the Loctite. I'm using new Starline brass so it's possible that I'll have better results with resized brass so I'm not giving up yet.

 

[murf]

i just measured one of my "kahuna" loads (325 grain cast performance bullet in front of a lot of h110 for 1250 fps out of my 4.625" blackhawk). the outside case diameter below the bullet is .469", and at the bullet is .473" (.004" bullet tension). the crimp is to the bottom of the bullet crimp groove.

i don't have a problem with bullet pull with this setup. you might want to check and make sure you have enough bullet tension for your load.

luck,

murf

p.s. this is only a 45 long colt load, but is, essentially, the same thing you have here.

 

[Mr.Revolverguy]

I have shot my Alaskan alot http://www.dayattherange.com/?p=5045 --- Mine has gone under a lot of work http://www.dayattherange.com/?p=4551 with milling the cylinder to accept moonclips and 45ACP. What I found is if I fight the recoil I get a bit of bullet jump, if I ride with the recoil and let the pistol ride high I get no bullet jump.

 

[MCMXI]

murf, I measured the I.D. of the upper 30% of the case mouth of new Starline cases and they're all around .453". Up to this point I haven't been sizing new brass. After sizing and expanding new Starline brass, the I.D. of the same region is .449". The bullet I'm shooting has an O.D. of .455" so I was very optimistic yesterday when I assembled 12 rounds. I shot five and inspected the sixth and it looked good. I then shot four and inspected the last two and the bullets had moved out, one significantly. You can see from the photo below that the case has a significant waist below the bullet, and if going by the numbers I should have .006" of neck tension. I did back off the Lee FCD crimp die marginally and haven't received the taper crimp die yet so that's my next test.

What I found is if I fight the recoil I get a bit of bullet jump, if I ride with the recoil and let the pistol ride high I get no bullet jump.

You're shooting a 360gr bullet at 1,050 fps whereas I'm shooting a 340gr bullet at close to 1,200 fps so not really apples to apples. I notice in the article that you link to that you list the Alaskan barrel as 2" but I'm fairly sure that it's 2.5". Your comment re not resisting the recoil is counter-intuitive to me. You would think that the more the revolver moves the greater the pulling effect on the bullet. Kind of like swinging a bullet puller fast vs. slow. That said, you're probably way more experienced than I am at shooting big bore revolvers so it could be the operator.

My Alaskan journey is far from over. I'll be the first to admit that I'm not doing very well with the revolver in terms of handling the recoil. 340gr at 1,200 fps is just south of unmanageable ... see my single action and double action offhand targets below. At this range (15 yards) I'll stack .45 ACP bullets on top of each other using any of my 1911s or SIG P220s. I feel like I'm back at the beginning of learning to shoot again but I guess it's human nature to prefer to do what we're good at rather than what we're not. As someone once said "nothing easy is worth doing". I'm going to start load development for the 4" Redhawk with the same 340gr bullet and see how that goes. I might be able to get the 340gr up to 1,200 fps with less felt recoil, less bullet jump and better accuracy but I ain't quitting on the Alaskan yet! It's too nice of a revolver to leave in the safe and too much of a beast to shoot soft loads.

Single action, slow fire, 340gr @ 1,200 fps at 15 yards - Ruger SRH Alaskan .454 Casull



Double action, "rapid" fire, 340gr @ 1,200 fps at 15 yards - Ruger SRH Alaskan .454 Casull

 

[CraigC]

Your comment re not resisting the recoil is counter-intuitive to me. You would think that the more the revolver moves the greater the pulling effect on the bullet. Kind of like swinging a bullet puller fast vs. slow.

I've never tested it but this has some merit. The case is fixed and can move very little but the bullet is only held by neck tension and the crimp so if the intertia overcomes the tension and crimp, it's going to move out of the case. The more the gun moves, the less inertia is imparted onto the bullet. Very similar to limp-wristing a semi-auto. The more the wrists and elbows bend, the more recoil is transmitted into muzzle rise and the less recoil is transmitted straight back to cycle the action. So I can easily see how stiff-arming the sixgun could cause more crimp jump than letting it roll upwards. It might be why I have experienced so little crimp jump but others seem to struggle with it constantly.

 

[MCMXI]

The more the gun moves, the less inertia is imparted onto the bullet.

Consider a revolver secured in a vice such that it can't move at all. Do you think that bullets would jump crimp during firing given that condition? This should be the worst case scenario for bullet jump based on your comment above. I think that Mr. Revolverguy might be onto something though. During the firing cycle the more the revolver rotates about about an axis which is probably located somewhere in the center of the wrist, the greater the angular acceleration of the revolver compared to linear acceleration. Acceleration of the revolver that's in line with the long axis of the cartridge will have the greatest effect in terms of bullet pull since that's the only direction that a bullet is free to move relative to the case. So basically I'm not allowing the revolver to rotate about my wrist during firing which results in more recoil accelerating the revolver and cases away from and in line with the long axis of the bullet/case. It looks like I'm using a semi-auto technique to shoot a big bore revolver.

 

[MCMXI]

I have a 4.0 inch Redhawk in 45LC. Using the 345 grain Beartooth bullet, Starline brass, Federal Magnum primers and a carefully worked up amount of H110, I get an average velocity of 1235 fps over my chronograph at about 12 feet from the muzzle.

Are you using around 24.8gr of H110? I just ordered 200 of those 345gr WLN-GC bullets from Beartooth Bullets this morning since the 340gr WFN-GC bullet from MBW won't fit in the Redhawk due to throat interference with the ogive! You can see the contact ring around the bullet that I marked in the photo below.

 

[RalphS]

Be patient with Beartooth Bullets. They are a small operation and, in my experience, usually take at least 3 months to fill an order. But as they say "worth the wait".

Your targets don't look too bad. There are lots of people carrying bear guns that can't shoot that well.

 

[MCMXI]

Be patient with Beartooth Bullets. They are a small operation and, in my experience, usually take at least 3 months to fill an order. But as they say "worth the wait".

Your targets don't look too bad. There are lots of people carrying bear guns that can't shoot that well.

3 months .... I could be mauled by a bear while I wait! Seriously, I was really hoping to get those bullets in the next week or two. I guess I should order more if it takes that long. I have six more sample 360gr Trueshot bullets from OT so might load those for the .45 Colt and see how they shoot. I have masses of OT 250gr and 300gr .452" bullets so I have plenty to shoot, just not the weight I want.

Thanks re the targets but I've developed quite the flinch shooting the Alaskan but hopefully I can train myself out of that. I haven't the first idea as to how to allow the revolver to roll in my hand rather than hold it the way I hold any handgun. Do I need to bring the revolver closer in rather than punch out? I typically punch out to about 90% of full extension. I have to hold the revolver tight but have to let it rotate in my hands ... hmmm.

 

[dickydalton]

Thanks for this thread guys. I took my 460XVR out for the first time in a year last Monday. I know this is about the 454 and I shot a few of them in it too and some 45 Colts that I thought were loaded a little hot a couple years ago. I was shooting some loads I made up about 7 years ago and now I can start again.The 300 XTP Mag hollow points I loaded went 1670 FPS and grouped ok. The Cast Performance 360 grain WLNGC loads clocked 1660 average and were clipping the top of the target so I guess I was flinching a bit. I shot a couple factory 200 grain Hornady's and they clocked 2260 & 2266 FPS.
You guys have awakened my interest in shooting this boomer again! Thank You All!

 

[RalphS]

If you need some bullets faster, try RimRock bullets (they supply the bullets to Buffalobore) or Cast Performance.

But Beartooth bullets are the best. They are just very slow to deliver.

 

[CraigC]

Last time I ordered from Beartooth, it took a lot longer than that but their product is excellent. I just wish they were a little more forthcoming about their lead times.

 

[MCMXI]

I loaded up the six remaining 360gr Oregon Trail Trueshot bullets in. 45 Colt cases this morning in front of 20.0gr of H110 powder with CCI 350 magnum primers. QuickLOAD predicts a velocity of around 1,100 fps and it's a stout load in the 4.2" Redhawk but manageable. I did notice that the Redhawk rolls a lot more in my hand compared to the Alaskan. I'm probably going to order some more of the 360gr Trueshot bullets from Oregon Trail and will look into RimRock and Cast Performance as well. The LabRadar should be here next week so I'll get back into recording velocity data for both the Redhawk and Alaskan.

You guys have awakened my interest in shooting this boomer again! Thank You All!

That's awesome. They are way too much fun to leave in the safe.

 

[RalphS]

a comment about the Rimrock bullets - if you look at the Buffalobore ammo on their website, they put a heavy crimp on their 45LC / 454 ammo. The Rimrock bullets that they use have a deep crimp groove which allows this. They must use some custom bullet molds because I haven't seen crimp grooves like that on other bullets. Something to consider if you have issues with bullet jump.

 

[MCMXI]

Last time I ordered from Beartooth, it took a lot longer than that but their product is excellent. I just wish they were a little more forthcoming about their lead times.

Their homepage says "A bullet worth waiting for" .... now it all makes sense.

http://www.beartoothbullets.com

a comment about the Rimrock bullets - if you look at the Buffalobore ammo on their website, they put a heavy crimp on their 45LC / 454 ammo. The Rimrock bullets that they use have a deep crimp groove which allows this. They must use some custom bullet molds because I haven't seen crimp grooves like that on other bullets. Something to consider if you have issues with bullet jump.

I checked out Rim Rock bullets and they're less than an hour south of me but they're kind of pricey, even compared to Oregon Trail. The Trueshot bullets are the best quality of any hardcast I've seen thus far, and at around $0.46 each (360gr) they're reasonable. However, they only come in one diameter for each bullet which could be a problem for some customers. I ordered 250 of the 360gr Trueshot bullets this morning and will use those in the Redhawk. When the Beartooth bullets show up I'll use those for practice since they're cheaper.

In another thread I mentioned that I shaped the Bantem grips on the Redhawk by deepening the finger grooves and wrapping them around the left side of the grip and they feel much better.

 

[MCMXI]

This thread is called "Super Redhawk Alaskan .454 Casull among other things" so here's an update on the Redhawk in .45 Colt with a 4.2" barrel. I ordered and received 360gr WNFP-GC bullets from Oregon Trail and put together 18 rounds this afternoon. I used the LabRadar with the Ruger for the first time and set it up to record velocities at 3, 6, 9, 12 and 15 yards in addition to the default muzzle velocity. I shot the first three rounds single action (bottom three shots on target) followed by three double action and the results indicate that I need to make a sight adjustment. I inspected three unfired rounds after shooting the first three and if there was any bullet jump it was negligible. The load is stout but manageable, it seems to be reasonably accurate so I probably won't be going much further than this.

360gr WNFP-GC Oregon Trail Trueshot
21.0gr H110
CCI 350 primer
New Starline brass
COAL: 1.670"

Average velocity: 1,128 fps
ES: 44 fps
SD: 17.8 fps
HI: 1,151 fps
LO: 1,107 fps

QuickLOAD predicts 1,166 fps at 40,155 psi for this load so I'm losing about 3.25% with the cylinder gap.

Here’s an example of two shots being tracked to the target 15 yards away.

0Y 1129 1123
3Y 1115 1119
6Y 1112 1115
9Y 1109 1111
12Y 1105 1107
15Y 1102 1103

I'll be carrying the Redhawk with this load on a hike tonight and I think that I prefer the Redhawk to the Super Redhawk.

 

[murf]

a bit late with your reply, but here goes:

the bullet pic in post #52 has a bevel crimp groove. the case mouth should roll crimp to the bottom of the groove, not the top of the groove. better to be short of the bottom rather than long of the bottom since the roll crimp will pull the bullet into the case if short. if long, the mouth of the case will be distorted, or the bullet will be dented. your roll crimps in that same post look a little high. later crimps look better, but i can't tell if the mouth is crimped all the way down to the bottom of the groove. something to be aware of anyway.

most new 45lc brass is sized for .454" dia. bullets at the normal 14,000 psi pressure. .452" diameter bullets don't stand a chance and fall right down into a new-unsized case. your .455" bullets probably don't have much bullet tension in those new-unsized cases. suggest you size all new cases.

regarding the special recoil management requirements:

exaggerating your follow-through is very important here. a large hammer, slow lock time and extreme muzzle flip demands one stay on target and let the recoil of the gun pull you off target. a firm grip throughout is also important.

when i shoot heavy loads through my 4.625" blackhawk, the muzzle of the gun winds up verticle and the recoil causes me to take a step back. i don't fight the recoil, i just hold on tight and ride with it.

sounds like you are doing great here. i love my big-kicking revolvers!!

luck,

murf

 

[MCMXI]

murf, thanks so much for your input. I'm really enjoying the process of leaning to reload for and shoot big bore revolvers. I'll make the crimp changes that you mention above and see if I can eliminate bullet jump entirely. I did receive a Redding taper crimp die and have been using that die followed by the Lee FCD for the roll crimp. The Redhawk with its exposed backstrap is thumping my palm with some authority with the 360gr load described above and I still don't think I'm managing recoil the way you describe but will work on it. My gf and I left the house at 11pm last night and hiked about six miles in the hope of seeing the Aurora Borealis and were up in bear country until around 1:30am this morning. I had the Redhawk strapped to my chest with 6 of those 360gr thumpers loaded and an extra 6 in cartridge loops on the holster. The Simply Rugged sourdough pancake loaded holster and chesty puller suspension system are top rate and I would recommend them to anyone. The journey continues as I work up 345gr loads when the Beartooth bullets arrive. In the meantime I'm going to work on perfecting the 360gr loads and improving my shooting technique. Thanks.

 

[pintler]

Thanks re the targets but I've developed quite the flinch shooting the Alaskan but hopefully I can train myself out of that.

Probably bringing coal to Newcastle here, but have you tried the 'load some skip some and spin the cylinder' technique?

Hmmm...I'm thinking double action here. For single action, maybe load a couple of dummy rounds, then take e.g. 4 live and two dummy rounds, mix them up in your hand, and load them. I have a 329pd .... with hard plastic lasergrips ... which is fugly to shoot. When I'm not sure whether the next round is a live one or a dummy, I think 'Man, I'm going to feel like a fool if I flinch and it's a dummy round'. It helps me not flinch, FWIW.

 

[MCMXI]

I've used that technique for my gf shooting her 9mm but not on myself yet. I know I'm anticipating the recoil so should probably have her load the revolver for me even if she uses fired cases and not tell me how many live rounds are in the revolver or in what sequence. I'm going to look really stupid as I flinch in anticipation.

 

[Scott B.]

The 335gr gets up over 1200fps in a 4.5" barrel at only 32,000psi. The 340gr Buffalo Bore .44Mag load hits 1200fps from the Alaskan. With the .454's pressure ceiling, it shouldn't be a problem at all.

That said, Ruger really needs a 4" version of the Alaskan.

I would love to see a 4" barrel Alaskan with the same barrel contour as the original 2.5". They made a 5" Toklat but it has the skinny round barrel of the longer SRH's. Not my cup of tea...