Support a CCW reciprocity lawsuit against Illinois

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44Brent

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I intend to file a lawsuit against the State of Illinois in order to force Illinois to honor carry licenses from other states. I have set up a web site at http://www.illinois-safety.net which has information on the lawsuit.

Please go to the web site and submit a pledge of support. It is going to take $20K - $150K to push the lawsuit through the 7th Circuit Court of Appeals, and possibly up to the Supreme Court. I can't do this alone -- I NEED your support.

Thank You,
Brent Hanson
 
<scratches head>

That wouldn't be my first choice for an attack.

Do a little digging, and in most non-CCW states, you'll find that "the elite" get carry rights some other way. We know the city leaders have a special "Alderman CCW system" - betcha there'll also be some sort of "special deputy" system.

Sue under equal protection, plus the Illinois constitutional RKBA. That's what's worked so far in Ohio.
 
44Brent,

I think that the Illinois Constitution does recognize RKBA.


(From the Illinois Constitution)
SECTION 22. RIGHT TO ARMS
Subject only to the police power, the right of the
individual citizen to keep and bear arms shall not be
infringed.

Of course this all hinges on what "subject only to the police power" actually means. I think that they worded it vaguely on purpose.
 
States are sovereign. You can't force a state to abide by the laws of another state, which is exactly what CCW reciprocity is. Thats why it's by agreement only.
 
It's got one, but it's *weird*:

---------
SECTION 22. RIGHT TO ARMS
Subject only to the police power, the right of the
individual citizen to keep and bear arms shall not be
infringed.

http://www.legis.state.il.us/commission/lrb/con1.htm
---------

Then again, there's Morton Grove :rolleyes:. You know, that piece of crap can be challenged. It relies on Presser vs. Illinois and hence Cruikshank, a notoriously racist case that's now being discredited. See also:

http://www.ninehundred.com/~equalccw/lockyeroncrack.html
 
I wonder if all of you actually read the web site's FAQs page (or the U.S. Constitution)


Article IV of the U.S. Constitution
Section 1 Full faith and credit shall be given in each state to the public acts, records, and judicial proceedings of every other state. And the Congress may by general laws prescribe the manner in which such acts, records, and proceedings shall be proved, and the effect thereof.
Section 2 The citizens of each state shall be entitled to all privileges and immunities of citizens in the several states.
 
"Then again, there's Morton Grove . You know, that piece of crap can be challenged. It relies on Presser vs. Illinois and hence Cruikshank, a notoriously racist case that's now being discredited."

Morton Grove was already sued. Morton Grove won. The only way to beat Illinois is in Federal Court, which means using Federal issues.

At any rate, I discussed this EXTENSIVELY MANY MANY times with an attorney who is an EXPERT in the subject.

Let me repeat this again: I discussed the legal strategy EXTENSIVELY MANY MANY times with an attorney who is an EXPERT in the subject.
 
44brent,

Who is going to be the plaintiff for this case? As an Illinois resident I don't think you would have standing in a case like this. I think you would need a CCW permit-holder from another state to file the suit. Lack of reciprocity does not directly effect an Illinois resident.
 
Not only do you probably need an out of state plaintiff, you probably need them to have a permit, carry their gun, then get busted in an appropriate (ask a lawyer) way.

Then you may be able to challenge it, but it is unlikely.

Full faith and credit means that any contract - like mariage, etc.

If you have a Florida Concealed weapon permit, it lets you CCW in Florida only.

I don't care who your expert attorney is - attorneys get paid for showing up, not for winning in a case like this so he should not be your only council on this.

Your best bet is to get them on equal protection, or possible on seperation of powers.

If I understant it right, lots of their elected officials who are in the legislative branch are also "deputized" to carry weapons. Need to research this better, but thats generally a no-no although not sure at what level.

Also,

LISTEN TO JIM MARCH - NOBODY IN THE ENTIRE WORLD KNOWS MORE ABOUT CCW REFORM THAN JIM MARCH.

Honest - I aint kiddin.
 
I've had a bit more time to think about this. Pendragon overstates the case SLIGHTLY as to my knowledge :D. (Actually, if things go as bad tomorrow as I expect, y'all are going to be utterly floored at tomorrow's report. The excrement is well and truly gonna hit a rotary air movement device from hell.)

Anyways. Back to Ill-noise.

What he's trying isn't *totally* crazy. It's actually similar to what the gays want to do with marriage: set up real "gay marriage" in a state like Vermont, then move elsewhere and force recognition. It hasn't played out in the courts either way yet, but that's their gameplan.

The "extra" he's got is the original US Constutional bits he's citing covering "privileges and immunities" being recognized across state boundaries.

But to win, he'll have to get a court to admit what "privileges and immunities" really are. Hint: they were *exhaustively* defined in Dred Scott as "the basic civil rights of free Englishmen, including the BoR and then some". READ Dred Scott if you haven't already! The P&I issue as it applies to the 14th Amendment is discussed in detail here:

http://www.ninehundred.com/~equalccw/practicalrace.html - includes link to Scott and it's importance in understanding P&I.

BUT since 1872, the courts have consistently refused to admit they know what the P&I clause IS, in either the original US Constitution, 14th Amendment or various state Constitutions. That's one hell of a lot of inertia to overcome.

------------------

Let me show you why I say that if you dig, you'll find "elitist carry" in some sort of fashion even in supposedly zero-CCW states.

Item: one of the guys holding CCW in Contra Costa County where they're VERY hard to get (massive corruption) answered "yes" to the question in the application "have you ever had CCW before?". He then clarified that it was in Lake County, Ohio.

But...Ohio doesn't have CCW! The guy clarified that it was a "special reserve deputy status" for the purpose of carrying. Chuck Klien and the other people running the Ohio legal actions found more of that, and more recent, and included an equal protection cause of action on that basis.

Item: at the time Florida went shall-issue (1987) they had been ZERO issue for a while before that. (They were discretionary back in the 40's and prior back to 1893, but ended it sometime long before 1987.)

Except I found references to the same "crony deputy situation" as Ohio:

http://www.ninehundred.com/~equalccw/howardpearl.html

What about the mysterious FEDERAL CCW that allows carry in DC, Chicago, national parks and similar? That's the hardest of all to get hard data on, but I've found traces:

http://www.sheeple.com/herd/marshal.html

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=1019598

So after seeing this in Ohio, Florida and at the Fed level, what are the odds the same crap is going on under Daly's Chicago kleptocracy?

Right. Higher'n'hell.

Find it. If nothing else, add it as a cause of action to the suit you're planning already. If one bit pukes and dies, fine, carry on with what's left. But equal protection is just a serious pain for the Liberals because they claim to be in *favor* of it.

:evil:
 
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There's already a lawsuit going on in the Chicago area, not based on reciprocity but simply calling our lack of CCW unconsitutional. Check out http://www.concealcarry.org

The plaintiff, CK Morley, has MS or something similar and walks only with difficulty, aided by a cane. He's a pretty sympathetic figure and can document three muggings or attacks on his person, two of which he stopped by carrying a pistol. He will be difficult for the press to demonize if he can get that far. I'm not optimistic about his chances, but something has to be done.
 
"attorneys get paid for showing up, not for winning in a case like this so he should not be your only council on this."

The word is "counsel", not "council".
 
Jim,

I'm not certain that the elites legally get any more CCW then the commoners in Illinois. Peace officers are exempt from the sections in the Illinois Revised Statutes on Unlawful Use of Weapons pertaining to the carry of firearms. Many politicians are legally Peace Officers by the job they hold.

Here is the catch, you are only a peace officer within your jurisdiction. The only state-wide legal concealed carry would be for State Troopers, Conservation Police Officers etc. A local cop or sheriff's deputy relies on professional courtesy when carrying outside his/her jurisdiction while not on duty.

There is currently a case here in Southern Illinois involving the mayor of a small town being charged with UUW for illegally transporting a pistol in his car in another jurisdiction. The mayor claims his status as the chief law enforcement officer by village ordinance makes his carry legal. The State's Attorney says he's not legal outside his jurisdiction. This could be interesting, although I would bet it's all quietly dropped.

Another interesting thing that you could use to check into the practice of Chicago Aldermen etc. carrying in peace officer status is to find out who is carrying then check with the state standards and training board to find out if they have completed the mandatory firearms training established by statute for a peace officer to be armed. By law there is an appointment card sent to Springfield when a person becomes a peace officer, then that person must compete the mandatory firearms training (currently 40 hours).

Jeff
 
I can personally confirm what Jim March says about Ohio "special deputies" is 100% true.

Also, I commend your willingness to take on such a fight. If peaceful reform is possible, let's try it. Don't discuss or debate details of your strategy on this or any other public board.
 
Brent,

I type stream of conciousness very quickly and while I am perfectly aware of my misuse of the word, it is extremely bad form to correct the spelling of people who are trying to help you.

This is an informal discussion forum, not the New York Times.

Get over it.
 
Pendragon:

I apologize for correcting your mis-spelling.

Let's address the following issue that you raised: "Not only do you probably need an out of state plaintiff, you probably need them to have a permit, carry their gun, then get busted in an appropriate (ask a lawyer) way."

I am not interested in volunteering to get "busted", as the penalty for this is a Class IV felony in Illinois. The whole purpose of the lawsuit is to AVOID getting charged with a Class IV felony. There is a smarter way to go about this, which is to get a letter from the Attorney General stating Illinois' position on licenses from other states. Incidentally, this is what I have already done, and the letter is posted at www.illinois-safety.net/ccw-ag-response.pdf

Regarding Chris Morley vs. Chicago, that case was filed in Cook County Court, and was subsequently dismissed The case is being refiled in Federal Court. It is important to note that that the Morley case is aimed at Chicago. That case will not set a precedent for forcing states to recognize other states' licenses.

Will my case affect Rhode Island residents who wish to carry in Massachusetts?
Will my case affect Nevada residents who wish to carry in California?
Will my case affect Michigan residents who wish to carry in Wisconsin?

The answer is YES in all of these cases.

Pendragon, will you sign a pledge of support for my lawsuit?
 
I wonder if all of you actually read the web site's FAQs page (or the U.S. Constitution)
There have been volumes written on this already.

Recognizing the validity of a document is not the same as abiding by that document. For example, a state will recognize, as true, documents from another state that have that states seal. So if state A says that you are a felon, state B will believe them. That's full faith and credit. It has nothing to do with enforcing the laws of state A within state B. This has long since been settled and accepted.

Similarly, the privileges and immunities clause simply means that every person within a state is treated the same. Again, it does not mean that you carry the laws of your state with you when entering other states. This also has long since been settled.

Any attempts on these grounds would be foolish...a complete waste of time and money. You only need a tiny bit of thought to imagine the implications of interpreting these clauses differently.
 
I will be happy to verbally and mentally "support" your cause.

I will be happy to contribute what insights I may have to any questions you post on THR.

I am not going to send you any money.

1. I dont have any - and I mean I dont have ANY right now.

2. As much as I wish you the best, I do not think your chances are good and I try to support causes that I think have a pretty good chance of succeeding. Also note that my opinion on your suit is extremely uninformed - so your chances may actually be better than I think, I just have no evidence or experience to base my opinion on.

3.If I actually had some money, I would suport an initiative that would affect me. I have helped Jim March from time to time because I believe in what he does and because I have seen results and I have seen enough of him in action to know he is a totally selfless crusader.


The problem with sending people money for lawsuits is accountability. Do you have books or records to show where the money will go? Do you take any kind of salary or fee or have any expenses that you charge to the money you collect? Is it tax deductable? you would have to setup the right kind of non profit org for it to be deductable.

I do not think you are not trustworthy - I actually believe that you are pretty serious about all of this, but you have to look at it from our point of view - we all have to be good stewards of our resources to get the most effect from every effort. I would recomend trying to hook up with some kind of group that is more known - they will loan you some credibility if they buy into your cause. An alternative would be to start your own non profit and do things by the books - keep records, have some accountability on paper, etc.

Good luck Brent.
 
US Supreme Court ruling that probably tanks this idea....

This won't look like it applies, until you read it.

--------------------------
San Francisco Chronicle
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2003/04/24/BU284087.DTL

Nevada inventor can sue California
Justices rule protections don't apply in Nevada

Bob Egelko, Chronicle Staff Writer Thursday, April 24, 2003
~~~

A Nevada inventor who has been fighting California for a decade over a multimillion-dollar tax bill can sue California's tax board for allegedly rummaging through his trash and invading his privacy, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled Wednesday.

A California law shields the Franchise Tax Board and its employees from lawsuits for actions while assessing or collecting a tax. But the high court ruled unanimously that Nevada is not required to follow that law in a suit by one of its residents, Gilbert Hyatt of Las Vegas.

Hyatt held one of the most important patents in the computer industry -- for the microprocessor chip at the heart of personal computers -- for six years in the 1990s, before the patent was largely revoked by a federal office. In 1991, he moved from California to Nevada, which has no state income tax, shortly before receiving $40 million in licensing fees.

The California Franchise Tax Board concluded he was still a California resident when he got the money, and billed him for taxes and penalties that now exceed $20 million, according to published reports. That dispute remains unresolved and was not before the high court, which instead addressed a separate suit by Hyatt.

In 1998, Hyatt sued the California board in Nevada, claiming that tax auditors engaged in various abusive practices, such as going through his mail and garbage and sharing confidential information with his competitors. That suit has been tied up in lengthy pretrial proceedings in Nevada courts over California's attempt to invoke its own state law, which would bar the suit in a California court. On Wednesday, the Supreme Court said the case could proceed.

Nevada does not shield its own agencies from damages for intentional wrongdoing and does not have to provide such protection to California agencies, the court said, upholding a ruling by the Nevada Supreme Court.

Although the U.S. Constitution requires states to honor each other's laws, a state is not required to violate its own "legitimate public policy" -- in this case, Nevada's policy of allowing suits that allege intentional misconduct by state officials, said Justice Sandra Day O'Connor. She rejected California's argument that the acts alleged in Hyatt's suit were part of the state's sovereign authority to enforce tax laws. [emphasis added by Jim]

The Franchise Tax Board and its chairman, state Controller Steve Westly, declined to comment on the ruling, and Hyatt's lawyer was not available. But the California Taxpayers Association, a business-sponsored group, said the ruling should encourage state tax officials to act with care when they venture into states with differing laws.

"This case was about defending the indefensible: California's immunity from suit for intentional torts," said the group's chief lawyer, Greg Turner. "Perhaps California needs to revisit its blanket immunity statute."

The case is Franchise Tax Board vs. Hyatt, No. 02-42.

E-mail Bob Egelko at [email protected].
--------------------------

Jim again. Does anybody here think that the courts won't label Illinois gun laws "legitimate public policy"?

:barf:
 
Although the U.S. Constitution requires states to honor each other's laws, a state is not required to violate its own "legitimate public policy" -- in this case, Nevada's policy of allowing suits that allege intentional misconduct by state officials, said Justice Sandra Day O'Connor. She rejected California's argument that the acts alleged in Hyatt's suit were part of the state's sovereign authority to enforce tax laws.

I am fully aware of the "legitimate public policy" defense, and addressed the need to overcome it, on my web site. You haven't told me anything that I didn't already know.

At any rate, don't bother trying to talk me out of filing a lawsuit. No pledges = no lawsuit being filed. I've haven't gotten a SINGLE pledge from the folks at Packing.org, and that tells me that this project is dead in the water. If the people at Packing.org won't make a pledge NO ONE will.

To all of you people who think you might want to come visit Illinois, my advice is to stay away. Try to defend yourself here, and you will end up with a Class IV felony charge. Try to comply with the laws in Illinois, and you may STILL end up with a Class IV felony charge, as the prosecutors make up their own laws as they go along.

Bye.
 
Brent,

As a CA resident, I am only slightly better off than you.

At least carrying without a permit is only a misdemeanor here - as long as the gun is registered to you.

I am trying my darnedest to leave, but family makes it sticky.

I hope you will stick around here.

DR
 
LA,Ca. Went through a only the pretty people(hollywood types) could get a CCW. Then LA brought in Willie Williams as chief of police. Ole Willie from Philly didn`t have what is required to PACK.
So LA make a special consession for ole Willie, so that the new chief could pack. When he got his ccw/ok to pack, some group sued the Great City of LA. :what:

Maybe someone from LA can relay what happened next:scrutiny:
 
Did you really expect anyone to give you any money? You are not well known around these parts, and your lawsuit stands little to no chance of even getting past summary judgment. Most people here give what they can to legitimate gun rights organizations, but we're not naive enough to give money to everyone with a website and a discredited legal theory. I'll stick to sending money to the SAF, GOA, and NRA.
 
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