Supreme Court could take guns case

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The longer they put it off, the more ineffective the court looks.
Its been nineteen-thirty something since the made a 2A ruling of any kind, and then they basically said they didn't know. A few more weeks is no big deal.

The longer they put it off, the more dishonest the ruling could be.
I don't think so. The courts are disingenuous sometimes, but rarely directly dishonest. It is not impossible that some very tortured legal logic (a la Roe v. Wade) could come out that invalidated the 2A, but it seems unlikely. It is one thing to gin up a new right out of nothing. It is much tougher to decide an enumerated right just does not exist anymore.
 
Exactly.... but militias DID... which means that a government authority is not required to form a militia as the founding fathers new them (militias). There is no reason to believe that the definition of a militia changed in the 25-30 years from 1775.

Article 1 Section 8 of the constitution gives congress the duty and the authority to define the militia and write legislation to provide for it's equipment and training:

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States, reserving to the states respectively, the appointment of the officers, and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

In 1792 congress passed the militia act. It was the first federal law dealing with the militia. http://www.constitution.org/mil/mil_act_1792.htm

Congress didn't deal with the militia again until 1808 when it passed a bill authorizing the distribution of $200,000.00 in weapons to be distributed to the states.

In 1862 congress passed the militia act of 1862 which basically authorized conscription in states that did not meet their quota of volunteers during the civil war.


In 1886 the US Supreme Court heard Presser v. Illinois.
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=case&court=us&vol=116&invol=252
PRESSER v. STATE OF ILLINOIS, 116 U.S. 252 (1886)

116 U.S. 252

PRESSER
v.
STATE OF ILLINOIS.

Filed January 4, 1886. [116 U.S. 252, 253] Herman Presser, the plaintiff in error, was indicted on September 24, 1879, in the criminal court of Cook county, Illinois, for a violation of the following sections of article 11 of the Military Code of that state, ( Act May 28, 1879; Laws 1876, 192:) 'Sec. 5. It shall not be lawful for any body of men whatever, other than the regular organized volunteer militia of this state, and the troops of the United States, to associate themselves together as a military company or organization, or to drill or parade with arms in any city or town of this state, without the license of the governor thereof, which license may at any time be revoked: and provided, further, that students in educational institutions, where military science is a part of the course of instruction, may, with the consent of the governor, drill and parade with arms in public, under the superintendence of their instructors, and may take part in any regimental or brigade encampment, under command of their military instructor; and while so encamped shall be governed by the provisions of this act. They shall be entitled only to transporta- [116 U.S. 252, 254] tion and subsistence, and shall report and be subject to the commandant of such encampment: Provided, that nothing herein contained shall be construed so as to prevent benevolent or social organizations from wearing swords. Sec. 6. Whoever offends against the provisions of the preceding section, or belongs to, or parades with, any such unauthorized body of men with arms, shall be punished by a fine not exceeding the sum of ten dollars, ($10,) or by imprisonment in the common jail for a term not exceeding six months, or both.' The indictment charged in substance that Presser, on September 24, 1897, in the county of Cook, in the state of Illinois, 'did unlawfully belong to, and did parade and drill in the city of Chicago with, an unauthorized body of men with arms, who had associated themselves together as a military company and organization, without having a license from the governor, and not being a part of, or belonging to, 'the regular organized volunteer militia' of the state of Illinois, or the troops of the United States.' A motion to quash the indictment was overruled. Presser then pleaded not guilty, and, both parties having waived a jury, the case was tried by the court, which found Presser guilty and sentenced him to pay a fine of $10. The bill of exceptions taken upon the trial set out all the evidence, from which it appeared that Presser was 31 years old, a citizen of the United States and of the state of Illinois, and a voter; that he belonged to a society called the 'Lehr und Wehr Verein,' a corporation organized April 16, 1875, in due form, under chapter 32, Rev. St. Ill., called the 'General Incorporation Laws of Illinois,' 'for the purpose,' as expressed by its certificate of association, 'of improving the mental and bodily condition of its members so as to qualify them for the duties of citizens of a republic. Its members shall, therefore, obtain, in the meetings of the association, a knowledge of our laws and political economy, and shall also be instructed in military and gymnastic exercises;' that Presser, in December, 1879, marched at the head of said company, about 400 in number, in the streets of the city [116 U.S. 252, 255] of Chicago, he riding on horseback and in command; that the company was armed with rifles, and Presser with a cavalry sword; that the company had no license from the governor of Illinois to drill or parade as a part of the militia of the state, and was not a part of the regular organized militia of the state, nor a part of troops of the United States, and had no organization under the militia law of the United States. The evidence showed no other facts. Exceptions were reserved to the ruling of the court upon the motion to quash the indictment, to the finding of guilty, and to the judgment thereon. The case was taken to the supreme court of Illinois, where the judgment was affirmed. Thereupon Presser brought the present writ of error for a review of the judgment of affirmance.

When the USSC upheld the decision of the Illinois Supreme Court they said this:

The right voluntarily to associate together as a military company or organization, or to drill or parade with arms, without, and independent of, an act of congress or law of the state authorizing the same, is not an attribute of national citizenship. Military organization and military drill and parade under arms are subjects especially under the control of the government of every country. They cannot be claimed as a right independent of law. Under our political system they are subject to the regulation and control of the state and federal governments, acting in due regard to their respective prerogatives and powers. The constitution and laws of the United States will be searched in vain for any support to the view that these rights are privileges and immunities of citizens of the United States independent of some specific legislation on the subject.

Currently 28 states have laws against unauthorized military units, conducting unauthorized military training, or both. There are also provisions in the Patriot Act and other federal laws prohibiting formation of certain types of private military organizations and conducting training. It's already been decided, you don't have the right to form your own militia.

Jeff
 
It's already been decided, you don't have the right to form your own militia.

pwned! I concede! If they don't rule this an individual right, then we truly have no right to privately held arms. This will be very bad if the SCOTUS rules for DC.
 
In my interpretation, the second clause ("the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed") is de facto independent of the first, because the People do not control the militia; the Government does. Also, think of the term "free state"; most countries that we would not consider free aren't so because they are ruled by military leaders, or leaders who place great importance on a government-controlled military. To keep the government from imposing such military rule and preserve the free state, the citizen must be able to take up arms, even against his own government. The militia is therefore "regulated", that is, kept in check, by the RKBA.
 
It is one thing to gin up a new right out of nothing. It is much tougher to decide an enumerated right just does not exist anymore.

If it's so hard, how have so many district courts managed to do exactly that to the 2nd amendment?

The truth is, it's not difficult at all; You just need to be shameless, and not care that everyone knows you lied about what the amendment means.

There are probably, I think, at least 5 'Justices' (God, that title is so Orwellian! :rolleyes: ) who'd be glad to rule against us. The real question is, are there five who have the guts to do so, knowing that everyone would know beyond a shadow of a doubt that they'd ruled dishonestly?

That's what we have to hope for: One or more 'Justices' who rule honestly because they can't stand the thought of everyone knowing for sure that they're dishonest.
 
I hope they do hear the case. Personally, I think we (pro-gun types) have 4 justices in the bag: Roberts, Scalia, Thomas and Alito. We only need one of the other 5 to vote our way and it'll be a wonderful day.

If you haven't read the entire 75 pages of Parker v DC I'd highly recommend it. Great background and very solid research and reasoning...at least I think so. For the most part, it's pretty easy to understand.
 
The Florida Constitution makes allowances for an ORGANIZED and an UNorganized militia:

Search the Florida Statutes

Abstract: (2) The organized militia shall be composed of the National Guard and such other organized military forces as are now or may be authorized by law. (3) The unorganized militia shall be composed of all persons subject to military duty but who are not members of units of the organized militia. (4) Only persons exempt from military duty by the terms of the National Defense Act shall be exempt from military duty in this state.

2. 0.02500250 f.s.
Score: 77.42%
Abstract: (2) The organized militia shall be composed of the National Guard and such other organized military forces as are now or may be authorized by law. (g) Provide military police or security guards to secure or guard any state military reservation or armory that the Adjutant General finds necessary to secure or guard. --The appointment of commissioned officers and warrant officers shall conform in number, rank and designation, and shall be based upon and made in conformity with tables of ...

Lordy I do LOVE my home state! Too bad it's getting too expensive to live in the southern tip!
 
The Florida Constitution makes allowances for an ORGANIZED and an UNorganized militia:

Most state constitutions do. Just because it exists doesn't necessarily mean one can form his own unit.

According to Florida Statutes, the governor can call up the militia:
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=Ch0250/ch0250.htm
250.06 Commander in chief.--

(1) The Governor of Florida is the commander in chief of all the militia of the state.

(2) The Governor of Florida, as commander in chief, may alter, increase, divide, annex, consolidate, disband, organize, or reorganize an organization, department, corps, or staff, so as to conform as far as practicable to any organization, system, drill, instruction, corps or staff, uniform or equipment, or period of enlistment prescribed by the laws of the United States and the rules and regulations adopted by the Department of Defense for the organization, armament, training, and discipline of the National Guard.

(3) The Governor may, in order to preserve the public peace, execute the laws of the state, suppress insurrection, repel invasion, respond to an emergency as defined in s. 252.34(3) or imminent danger thereof, or, in case of the calling of all or any portion of the militia of Florida into the services of the United States, may increase the Florida National Guard and organize it in accordance with rules and regulations governing the Armed Forces of the United States. Such organization and increase may be pursuant to or in advance of any call made by the President of the United States. If the Florida National Guard is activated into service of the United States, another organization may not be designated as the Florida National Guard.

(4) The Governor may, in order to preserve the public peace, execute the laws of the state, enhance domestic security, respond to terrorist threats or attacks, respond to an emergency as defined in s. 252.34(3) or imminent danger thereof, or respond to any need for emergency aid to civil authorities as specified in s. 250.28, order into state active duty all or any part of the militia which he or she deems proper.

(5) The Governor may authorize all or any part of the Florida National Guard to participate in any parade, review, inspection, ceremony, or other public exercise; to serve for escort duty; to participate in training; to provide extraordinary support to law enforcement upon request; and to provide humanitarian relief in situations for which it is uniquely qualified. Such expenses incidental thereto and authorized by the Governor may be paid as provided for state active duty.

(6) The Governor may delegate the authority to convene a general court-martial to the Adjutant General.

History.--ss. 7, 8, ch. 8502, 1921; CGL 2018, 2019; s. 1, ch. 25112, 1949; s. 3, ch. 73-93; s. 12, ch. 83-334; s. 101, ch. 95-148; s. 2, ch. 96-333; s. 6, ch. 2003-68.

Note.--Former ss. 250.07, 250.08.

All Florida law has to say about the unorganized militia is that the governor can call them up. It doesn't say anyone else can call them up, or that they an meet and drill.

However it is against the law in Florida to form your own militia unit. From the Florida Criminal Code:
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes....HTM&Title=->2007->Ch0870->Section 06#0870.06
Title XLVI
CRIMES

Chapter 870
AFFRAYS; RIOTS; ROUTS; UNLAWFUL ASSEMBLIES

View Entire Chapter

870.06 Unauthorized military organizations.--No body of persons, other than the regularly organized land and naval militia of this state, the troops of the United States, and the students of regularly chartered educational institutions where military science is a prescribed part of the course of instruction, shall associate themselves together as a military organization for drill or parade in public with firearms, in this state, without special license from the Governor for each occasion, and application for such license must be approved by the mayor and aldermen of the cities and towns where such organizations may propose to parade. Each person unlawfully engaging in the formation of such military organization, or participating in such drill or parade, shall be guilty of a misdemeanor of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.

Jeff
 
I wouldn't hold much hope for this. Given the SCOTUS track record, such as United States vs Bean, SCOTUS, if they hear the case at all, will say that since the Plaintiff was not arrested or convicted for violating DC's law, then there is no damage, and it will be dimissed. They will not address the 2nd Amendment issue at all. Or, they will say that the Plaintiff has no cause to bring action, and dismiss it, or some other bull@#% technicality to make it go away.

In US vs Bean, for example, SCOTUS ruled that since the BATF did not actually deny him restoration of his rights, but merely took no action at all, he did not have cause to bring suit, and it was dismissed, even though the 5th Circuit Court of Appeals had restored his rights. Mr. Bean still has no rights restored. And his felony conviction wasn't even in a US Court! What he was convicted of was legal in the US.

Don't hold your breath on this one.

Semper Fi!
 
Shureshot:
The Supremes ruled recently that you cant be considered a felon for crimes you're convicted of in a foreign court that are not crimes in the US. (I think it was about someone convicted of Bible smuggling in China or something equally rediculous in Japan)

ETA:
Small v. U.S

Kharn
 
Last edited:
Your information is incorrect. The Supreme Court has never made such a ruling.

18 USC section 922(g)(1) states that:

(g) It shall be unlawful for any person -
(1) who has been convicted in any court of, a crime punishable
by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year;

to ship or transport in interstate or foreign commerce, or possess
in or affecting commerce, any firearm or ammunition; or to receive
any firearm or ammunition which has been shipped or transported in
interstate or foreign commerce.

Thomas Bean, a Texas FFL holder had been attending a gun show in S. Texas near the border in 2002. Mr. Bean then drove to Mexico to get some mexican food. When Mexican officials stopped his vehicle at the border, they found ammunition under the seat of his car that had been missed when he cleaned it out prior to his Mexican excursion., and Bean was subsequently convicted in a Mexican court of importing ammunition. He stayed in a Mexican jail for 6 months before being allowed to go back to the U.S. on a prisoner exchange deal. Because of his felony conviction, 18 USC section 922(g)(1) prohibited Bean from possessing, distributing, or receiving firearms or ammunition. Bean applied to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms (ATF) for relief from his firearms disabilities, but the ATF returned the application unprocessed, explaining that its annual appropriations law forbade it from expending any funds to investigate or act upon applications such as Bean's. Bean then filed suit, asking the District Court to conduct its own inquiry into his fitness to possess a gun and grant relief from his inability to possess, distribute, or receive firearms or ammunition. The court granted the requested relief, and the Court of Appeals affirmed. The BATF appealed and SCOTUS agreed to hear the case.

In a unanimous opinion delivered by Justice Clarence Thomas, the Court held that the absence of an actual denial of Bean's petition by ATF precludes judicial review. Because Bean's application for relief from the firearms disabilities was not considered due to appropriation provisions, Justice Thomas reasoned that the court could not grant relief since the statute only permitted judicial review of an affirmative denial of an application. "The text of [section 925(c)] and the procedure it lays out for seeking relief make clear that an actual decision by ATF on an application is a prerequisite for judicial review, and that mere inaction by ATF does not invest a district court with independent jurisdiction to act on an application," wrote Justice Thomas. Therefore, Mr. Beans rights were once again stripped from him. He had no prior crimnal record.

Conviction in a foriegn court will cause you to lose your rights in the US, even if it is not illegal here. Ask Mr. Bean.
 
Wow there have been allot of very well written pro 2A articles popping up in places that you would never think they would. (Like the one in the LA Times this week) All I can say is keep up the good work, because the Justices read the paper also.
 
saw this over at scotus blog


Court to examine gun appeals Nov. 20
Thursday, November 15th, 2007 10:57 am | Lyle Denniston | Comments (2) | Print This Post

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The Supreme Court will consider at its private Conference on Nov. 20 whether it will hear one or both of two appeals in a case involving the constitutionality of the District of Columbia’s flat ban on private ownership and use of handguns. The Court’s electronic docket on Thursday indicated that the Justices will be examining District of Columbia v. Heller (07-290) and a conditional cross-petition, Parker v. District of Columbia (07-335) at that time The two cases were up for consideration at the Nov. 9 Conference, but the Justices took no action then.

Any order in the cases could emerge on the day of the Nov. 20 Conference, or the following Monday, Nov. 26.
 
Conviction in a foriegn court will cause you to lose your rights in the US, even if it is not illegal here. Ask Mr. Bean.

Not any more it won't. In Small v. US which Kharn cited for you and which post dates US v. Bean the Court held that that very phrase 'in any court' did not cover foreign courts.

Small was convicted of smuggling guns in Japan, by the way.
 
Gildas: When a guy with his name in bold says something here, listen.

Talk about the Heller case, or the thread gets closed.
 
To discuss Heller:
Remember that even if SCOTUS takes the case, that's just TAKING the case, not deciding it. They have to issue the acceptance, reveal what the question actually is, take briefs from all parties, hold oral arguments (that will be hysterical), and then issue a very long verdict.

This will take a while. Heck, it took 'em almost 70 years just to get to this case.
 
Gildas: When a guy with his name in bold says something here, listen.

Talk about the Heller case, or the thread gets closed.

It's been an interesting tour of this site, but this is the 4th or 5th thread I've checked out where a moderator has attempted to narrowly structure an enjoyable and enlightening conversation. That's not for me. I'll stay with gunboards.com.

Best of luck to you all,

Semper Fi!
 
Gildas: When a guy with his name in bold says something here, listen.

Talk about the Heller case, or the thread gets closed.

My apologies. In my haste to reply I completely missed that post.

By way of making amends, let me post something of substance that is relevant to the topic...

I've seen a lot of analysis and speculation on whether the SCOTUS will grant Heller, that is based on two assumptions:

1. That everyone on the court knows what result they want to reach
2. That there are sinister reasons why they would rather not

And that is possible, of course. But I would hazard a guess that actually for most of the Justices this issue does not enter their consciences much at all. Now clearly not being into guns is indicative of a character flaw on their part :), but I think it is a likely hypothesis. So while it is possible that the court's inaction is because some may vote tactically to stop X or Y happening, I think it is much more likely that this is because of some mundane reason (like they ran out of time during their discussion and postponed a decision). Some of the War on Terror cases have floated around for months at conferences before getting Grants or Denials. The bottom line is we will know about cert soon enough.

This disconnect in worldview matters more if the case is granted. You know, and I know and we all know about the idiotic intricacies of DC's law (e.g. the storage requirement) but without it being drawn to their attention it seems likely to me that the Justices don't. Which is why it will be interesting to see whether they grant on DC's deliberately obfustacting question or reword it. If they grant on DC's question, then it is possible that they did not appreciate the deceit involved, in which case it is all the more important for Levy and Gura to draw their attention to it in the Briefs and at Oral Argument.

Incidentally does anyone know how often they reword a Petition at the request of the Respondent?
 
Since links go down

John Longenecker
For Non-Gun Owners: D.C. v. Heller and Nutshell 2A.
November 14, 2007 at 1:06 pm · Filed under Vox Populi

I was so very pleased to join Bob Parks on his show, Outside The Wire last night, November 13th. We talked about gun bans and what personal weapons are all about. Thanks again for having me, Bob.

The Supreme Court Of the United States may soon decide whether to hear District Of Columbia v. Heller, a case about gun bans and frustration of a civil right in high crime areas. In these areas, the right is needed most, and in these areas, it is vexed and frustrated the most. How does blocking a civil right operate in the public interest?

D.C. v. Heller, if the Supremes elect to hear the case, can have a profound impact on the country’s gun control policy, and thus an effect on individual liberty and on how crime is met. Gun bans do not work, and where the Second Amendment is affirmed, crime doesn’t seem to be a problem. You might say that government burden has been lifted a bit, as — even with more than 2 million gun owners carrying their weapon – none of the dire predictions of shootings has come true, and armed citizens are demonstrated to play an important role in crime control.

In this country, there are about 300 million guns in the hands of some 80 million gun owners, and most of the shootings are criminal in nature. Out of 11,000 annual shooting deaths, nearly all are criminal in nature, while armed citizens use their gun to de-escalate a crime more than 2.5 million times every year, almost exclusively without even firing their weapon. [Source: www.FBI.gov, Uniform Crime Report.] Look at this again: Compared to 11,000 criminal shootings each year, these are 2.5 million non-shootings, or put another way, 2.5 million crime that didn’t happen. What doctors, activists and officials point to in trauma is not responsible or irresponsible gun use, but Crime. What they are seeing is not carelessness of gun owners and it is not enough to call it Violence — it is Crime. It is one-sided aggression. What they will never see is the 2.5 million acts of crime which are stopped by an armed citizen. As I said, right-to-carry states don’t seem to have the same high-violence, high crime problem nor the government burden. Some forty states seem to like it that way.

But what is 2A really all about? National Guard? Private ownership? How does 1776 thinking relate to 2008 and beyond? This is old hat for liberty nuts, but probably new to the non-gun owners.

Let’s review in a nutshell, since the Supremes will do what they do best: interpret the Constitution, which means the thinking of Original Intent of the Founders.

In a nutshell, the Founding Fathers, in defeating the Crown of England, defeated abuses of due process, and in founding the new nation, in preventing this from ever happening again, they declared the Citizen as Supreme Authority, Point #1.

Through education content, media, entertainment and outright activism, this Authority is being buried deeper and deeper from public view. For instance, many Americans do not know that their police have no duty to protect them. [Castle Rock v. Gonzales, U.S. Supreme Court, 2005: No constitutional right to police protection.] For some heads of household, this comes as a big surprise.

Point #2 is that 2A was not written for you and me, it was written for officials, like most of the Document. It recognizes a small bundle of rights as pre-existing and creator-given, and places a wide scope of limits on officials. 2A is a limit on officials.

Point #3 is that the Founders did not imagine weapons of the future to be a threat to the new nation – what they did fear as a threat was future abuses of due process as likely to recur in any age, in any administration including state or local, so they said in their debates, in their writings and in the final ratification that the citizen authority of the future must be backed by lethal force, and for all time, or the new nation would perish at any time.

Armed citizens are in the public interest for many reasons, and vexing and disarming citizens is against the public interest whatever the reason. The 11,000 homicides by criminals is not reason enough to disarm the 2.5 million who de-escalate crime for themselves and on behalf of their communities.

2A is as absolute as the Emancipation Proclamation is. In this country, you cannot own and trade in human beings, not even a little. Neither can one legally write laws which disarm the supreme authority of the nation, not even a little. Notwithstanding another amendment, 2A is absolute because it backs citizen authority forever, and without another amendment, there can be no such thing as a sensible gun law to interfere with that authority.

Point #4 is that Militia of 1776 must be what guides today’s interpretation of 2A, which is that Militia meant the Everyman. The National Guard did not come into existence for another 130 years after the signing of the Constitution – they couldn’t have meant that.

We must be guided by the Original Intent of the Founders and their perspective in what they defeated and how they wanted to prevent its recurring in the new nation: their solution was to prevent future abuses of the law by declaring the citizen as supreme authority and to back that authority with force. The Original Intent of the Founders was not for only their time, but for survival of the nation for all time.

Today, the exquisite example of abuse of due process is in the use of Crime as an excuse to further and further disarm all via gun control policy, and this cannot stand. Any effort to disarm Americans is to disarm the supreme authority of the nation, which is the People, not public servant executives. Gun control policy is adverse to public interest because it obfuscates citizen authority to act when facing grave danger alone, and cultivates dependency on those executives for increased government burden.

Independence in supreme authority impeaches gun control policy and many anti-crime policies which have acted only to the detriment of the American people.

________________________

NukemJim
 
S. 397 [109th]: Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act

Folks due to S. 397 [109th]: Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act which passed both houses and was signed into law by Bush 10/2005 that we don't have to worry too much that the 2A conveys an Individual Right NOT a Collective Right as per section 2,a,2 below.

(2) The Second Amendment to the United States Constitution protects the rights of individuals, including those who are not members of a militia or engaged in military service or training, to keep and bear arms.

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=s109-397

Funny thing is that you folks should also look at who the sponsor was.....he may like to play footsy but he did right by us by sponsoring this bill.
 
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