Supreme Court to Hear DC Case

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I guess this teacher sounds pretty biased towards people not having guns.

That pretty much describes 9 out of 10 law school profs. My own, who's now a sitting appellate judge in Oregon, spent about two minutes on the Second and refused to entertain any debate on the collective rights approach. He was visibly frightened of the subject. That was back when I started to realize I had been lied to for many years.
 
“Whether the following provisions — D.C. Code secs. 7-2502.02(a)(4), 22-4504(a), and 7-2507.02 — violate the Second Amendment rights of individuals who are not affiliated with any state-regulated militia, but who wish to keep handguns and other firearms for private use in their homes?”

Looks like I'd have to dig out a micrometer to get more narrower than that...


But, hey. The eternal optimist in me still says that if the ruling answers that question with a "yes" it will still be a solid crack in the dam with regards to the rest of the country.
 
It doesn't also appear to address a real issue for DC residents, even if they are allowed pistols, how are they going to get one. I seem to remember somone saying that there are no FFL's in DC itself ergo no NICS, therefore no weapon.

If it goes in our favor, DC residents could then likely get a C&R license or maybe an FFL will pop up selling handguns...
 
I don't understand why they chose to review it at all if all they intended to do was affirm the lower court's ruling. Isn't it true that they usually only review rulings when they think they are a) wrong or b) there is a larger constitutional issue that needs clarified and this case is a good vehicle? In other words, don't they usually leave appeal court rulings stand when they think they are adequate? Maybe I am engaging in wishful thinking but it seems to me that because both sides asked for the review, the court knows that the lower ruling is not adequate to lay the issues to rest and there will be more and more cases until a broader ruling is made. I expect them to rule that yes, there is an individual right (killing the whole militia argument once and for all) and no, a ban cannot extend to a whole class of guns like handguns, but that yes, states and cities can regulate within that and it is not an infringement.
 
They can recognize the RKBA as an individual right, and then find that the government has an extreme interest in public safety which justifies heavy restrictions/regulations on said right.

There's plenty of opportunity for us to "win the battle" yet lose the war.
 
That pretty much describes 9 out of 10 law school profs. My own, who's now a sitting appellate judge in Oregon, spent about two minutes on the Second and refused to entertain any debate on the collective rights approach. He was visibly frightened of the subject. That was back when I started to realize I had been lied to for many years.

Mine ignored it, lied about it, or simply ridiculed it. In law school, it was a given that the Second Amendment was a collective right, notwithstanding the weight of the evidence.
 
I thought the 2nd Amendment was referring to "well-regulated" militias, not state-regulated ones.

The only militias are state militias. The Congress has the right to organize, arm and discipline (i.e. provide standards, training protocols, etc.) the militias to execute laws (now THERE'S a scary thought in certain scenarios), repel invasions and suppress insurrections. See U.S. Constitution, Art. 1, Sec. 8:

To provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States, reserving to the states respectively, the appointment of the officers, and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

"Well regulated" in the 18th century meant "well trained" or "disciplined." Alternatively, it meant "functioning as designed or efficiently." As in a clock that is regulated to keep time accurately, or a double-barreled shotgun that was regulated so that the shot from both barrels would hit the same spot at a particular range.

I'm a lawyer, though NOT a Constitutional scholar. It seems to me that the phrasing of the argument by the Supremes...

“Whether the following provisions — D.C. Code secs. 7-2502.02(a)(4), 22-4504(a), and 7-2507.02 — violate the Second Amendment rights of individuals who are not affiliated with any state-regulated militia, but who wish to keep handguns and other firearms for private use in their homes?”

...means that the decision is going to be heavily based upon the DC Circuit's opinion. I think that this is fantastic for us. My read is that the 2nd will be narrowly interpreted to guarantee a pre-existing individual right. While the ruling won't state anything about incorporation, the fact that you are dealing with a fundamental right (akin in importance to freedom of speech, freedom of the press, etc.) almost guarantees that the next time afterwards that a non-DC citizen/resident challenges a state or local law/regulation, we'll win the incorporation argument. Goodby gun bans.

I will go out on a limb and state that if this ruling goes our way, then Title 18, Section 922(o) will soon thereafter be ruled unconstitutional (and will likely be among the first things challenged). It is a clear gun ban that is virtually identical to the DC ban, with 2 differences: 1) it is federal; and 2) it bans "machine guns." Being federal, we don't need incorporation to successfully challenge it. Being a ban on ALL post-'86 full autos (including those currently fielded by the armed forces) is a violation of the Miller interpretation of the 2A.

I'm beginning to feel good. If the ruling goes our way, what will the Dem nominee say (because it won't be handed down until late June, when the winner will be all be official)? If he/she who must not be mentioned comes out non-committal, some of the Dem base may stay home. If he/she who must not be mentioned comes out against it, you're going to have a hornet's nest of recently vindicated gun owners - and wannabee gun owners in currently repressed states - who will turn out in droves to vote against him/she who must not be mentioned, to make sure that we get Justices who will continue to uphold the ruling. Win/win for us.
 
I find it very hard to believe the supreme court will open the door to legalizing "machine guns." They may have to define what are and are not "arms" per the second.
 
Would this get rid of all the 4473 and NICS nonsence too??

Just go in--pay your money and walk out with your purchase??

No more CCW permits---just carry what you want--when you want??

No more FFL's??? Anyone with a store front could sell what they want??

Bye bye ATF??
 
Someone told me that they were in a law class and this subject came up yesterday.
The teacher, whom is a lawyer, and from what I know is a very good one, said it had to be decided as a "collective" right, because of the punctuation.
However, I guess this teacher sounds pretty biased towards people not having guns.
What do you think about the punctuation? Could decide it?

Punctuation to decide a civil right, desregarding the historical circustances of how that right came about, what the issues were in the original 2A debates, and how the 2A has since been applied by the Courts, and this guy is a law professor, a good one? Okay!!! Whatever!!!
 
I expect them to rule that yes, there is an individual right (killing the whole militia argument once and for all) and no, a ban cannot extend to a whole class of guns like handguns, but that yes, states and cities can regulate within that and it is not an infringement.

That's a good bet. But remember they don't have to say bupkus about what states can or can't do in the hypothetical sense. In order to get a majority, in fact, they may have to avoid the topic.
 
Did anyone else's heart skip a beat when you saw that headline?

I have to admit, until this thing actually is decided, I'm going to be hanging on a thread here. Wow, this is definitely very major, no matter how narrow they decide it.
 
My concern would be that the Supremes say "Though will allow the masses access to a pistol so long as it is reasonably regulated" Without putting bounds on what is reasonable or not overly burdensome.
I doubt that "reasonable regulations" will be addressed. It's outside the scope of the question.

I may be an optimist but it seems the way the question's been worded, the decision will settle forever the question of an individual right vs. a collective right. In other words it should settle exactly what "the right of the people" means. That alone will be worth the 68 year wait.
 
It doesn't also appear to address a real issue for DC residents, even if they are allowed pistols, how are they going to get one. I seem to remember somone saying that there are no FFL's in DC itself ergo no NICS, therefore no weapon.

Somewhere I have a recipe for rabbit stew. It begins "First you get a rabbit." The idea is that without a rabbit you don't get to make rabbit stew. That stew will not cure paranoia, baldness, or male performance issues and it tastes awful but it's good to have if you're hungry.

The existence or non-existence of FFLs in Washington, D.C., is irrelevant at the moment and will remain so unless people within that hellhole have the right to own what the FFL sells.

Don't scare away the rabbit.
 
They can recognize the RKBA as an individual right, and then find that the government has an extreme interest in public safety which justifies heavy restrictions/regulations on said right.

Yes, we will then need a seperate SCOTUS case on what exactly "Infringment" means...
 
Yes, we will then need a seperate SCOTUS case on what exactly "Infringment" means...

And that one could go the opposite of what everyone hopes or expects. The history of the Supreme Court and its decisions can all too often be summed up by the phrase "you've got to be kidding me!"
 
I think we'll need to overturn the DC laws long before we can hope to tackle the NFA again. One step at a time. The Supreme Court very rarely announces broad edicts from on high. And the current Court is VERY unlikely to do so. The days of Brown v. Board are long gone. So we're likely to get an important opinion that answers the basic questions about their view of the Second, and whether or not the most extreme ban in the nation can pass muster under that interpretation.

I just hope we're not stuck with one of those impossible plurality rulings where the justices can't agree on anything and you have to spend years wrestling with the mess in the lower courts.
 
You people are going to be sorely disappointed if you think if the Supreme Court affirms the DC Circuit ruling that 922(o) will go away, unlicensed CCW will become legal in all 50 states, that the 4473 and NICS will go away and it'll all be rainbows and unicorns.

This will be a relatively narrow ruling on the constitutionality of a few sections of DC law. That's it. Don't get me wrong, affirming the DC Circuit will be a good start, but overturning anything other than those few sections of DC law will require whole new cases.
 
The Congress has the right to organize, arm and discipline (i.e. provide standards, training protocols, etc.) the militias
Not a right, a power. Never forget only human beings have rights, government, its entities, and their agents when acting on behalf of government do not.
to execute laws (now THERE'S a scary thought in certain scenarios),
how is it more scary for the militia to be tasked with executing the laws then a standing paramilitary force as we have now?

repel invasions and suppress insurrections. See U.S. Constitution, Art. 1, Sec. 8:
 
Looking at the Court's version, the first thing that pops to mind is that D.C. wanted the issue limited to handguns and clearly the Court is broadening the issue to include "handguns and other firearms."

"...other firearms." Think about that. It ain't just rifles and shotguns. I don't know if full autos will be mentioned by the USSC, but that term definitely includes them.
 
I don't think machine guns were mentioned in the DC Circuit case (as defined federally, not DC's idiotic "can hold more than 12 rounds" definition). That doesn't mean that the SCOTUS can't include them in their ruling, just that it's a lot less likely.
 
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