Surplus M14s in police hands?

[NoirFan]

Hello,

I was watching the movie "A Perfect World" which is a police manhunt set in 1960s Texas (pretty good film btw). One of the pursuing lawmen is an FBI creep armed with a scoped M14 rifle. This got me curious: I've heard it's common practice for US police departments to receive free surplus M16s from the federal government, but did this ever happen on a widespread basis with the M14? I'm especially looking for stories from current and retired cops who have seen, or used an M14 during their term of service. Pictures would be nice too if anyone has them.

Thanks

 

[Slamfire]

A Law Enforcement Officer came to our 100 yard Reduced Match and brought a Police Department M14. A real M14, we just oh'd and ah'd over the thing. This was before 9/11. Apparently the Army had given loaned them out to Law Enforcement.

Post 9/11, I asked about those rifles. The Army called them all back.

 

[Trebor]

A few years back the military was giving out surplus M-14's the police departments. As far as I know that ended when military demand for the M-14 picked up after the invasion of Iraq/Afghanistan and that program ended. M-16A1 rifles are still available.

 

[SharpsDressedMan]

Our local sheriff's dept has gov't supplied M14's. Not sure how many, but my friend who retired recently was on the SWAT team for years, and he kept the M14 at home in his vault while issued, as he had to respond from home when called. They got them in the late 1980's or early 1990's, if I recall correctly.

 

[Coronach]

There are still some out there, but the DoD is probably not giving them out right now due to demand for the M14 in a DMR capacity. As was stated, the M16A1 is very much available, and was the more popular choice with LE anyway. We have a couple hundred M16A1s (fun switch removed) in use with my department right now.

Mike

 

[DoubleTapDrew]

Seems kind of long for most situations (but I'm not LE). Didn't they switch to the mp5 in the 80's/90's then to M16/AR-15 type platforms more recently?
Read a thread on arfcom where a police armorer was asking how to disable the fun switch on M16A1's as they were getting them from the nat'l guard for $25 each

 

[cacop]

CA Fish and Game has them. Or did the last time I saw one. They are pretty rare to find. Fish and Game guys that is. There are probably less than 100 for 38 million people in CA. The state has been pondering making CHP take them over, partly just to be able to say they are the "Department of Fish and Chips."

 

[Bluehawk]

If you disable the "fun switch" I assume you have to take the auto sear and selector switch out and replace that with an AR15 part. Doesn't that just make it simply a AR15...in a sense? Meaning it simply becomes a semi-auto. Why bother??

 

[Trebor]

If you disable the "fun switch" I assume you have to take the auto sear and selector switch out and replace that with an AR15 part. Doesn't that just make it simply a AR15...in a sense? Meaning it simply becomes a semi-auto. Why bother??

Because police departments can get M-16A1 rifle from the gov for about $25 each instead of paying $800 + for an AR-15.

$25 vs. $800 (and up) - You do the math.

 

[NoirFan]

A Law Enforcement Officer came to our 100 yard Reduced Match and brought a Police Department M14. A real M14, we just oh'd and ah'd over the thing.

Slamfire1, did this cop say in what capacity these rifles were used? Were they just carried around in every patrol car like AR15s are nowadays or were they specialized weapons?

As was stated, the M16A1 is very much available, and was the more popular choice with LE anyway.

Coronach, what specifically about the M16A1 made it more popular?

Thanks

 

[Tirod]

As if $25 wasn't enough to make it more popular.

I'm not so sure M16a1's are being "sold" to LEO departments on a permanent basis. If someone has experience with the acquisition, please correct me. AFAIK, Uncle Sam retains ownership - it's a machine gun, NFA and all that. So is the M14, too - and some have been recalled to use in SWAsia.

As for removing the fun switch, simply knocking out the extra pin and disconnector will do it. Adding a semi selector just helps keep it from rotating back all the way. Not having full auto keeps the department budget in line, and also reduces public liability. Having full auto for a "PO'd Man in a Trailer With Hostage" situation offers nothing.

Full Auto is like a spring powered switchblade, lots of Gee Whiz, not so much effective for confrontations - most don't go over two or three shots. There are always innocent bystanders in the way who will sue. It's also the reason the MP5 craze of the '80's played out. Tactical submachine gun use in the streets of America isn't cost-effective or justified.

 

[gunnutery]

M-16A1 rifles are still available

What is the name of the program that distributes these? I'd rather have an M14 but I'd also heard they've been reporpoused to the military. I recently contacted my senator about getting more rifles for our department. He replied by giving me info on grant sources but did not mention a program name. During my search of the grant sites, I found no mention of a rifle lending program under DoD.

Can someone point me to a good source to contact ref. acquiring rifles for our dept?

 

[Slamfire]

Slamfire1, did this cop say in what capacity these rifles were used? Were they just carried around in every patrol car like AR15s are nowadays or were they specialized weapons?

I did not ask about how they used them. Since the guy had one, it is probable that troopers who requested one could take one out. But for how long, I don't know.

 

[Robert]

When I was a State Trooper back in 03 I had a M16 and a M14, yes M14 not M1A, in the trunk of my car.

 

[Coronach]

Gunnuttery: Look up DRMO (pronounced "Dermo"). If that is not the exact program that distributes the rifles, it is an associated program. I'll ask the ordies the next time I'm out there for the exact program name.

If you disable the "fun switch" I assume you have to take the auto sear and selector switch out and replace that with an AR15 part. Doesn't that just make it simply a AR15...in a sense? Meaning it simply becomes a semi-auto. Why bother??

As was said, it is cost. The department can get an M16A1 for under $50, shipped. Add in the cost of converting the trigger group back to semi, and you're still well under $100. Compare that to $800-ish for a basic AR15. FWIW, I see no need for FA capability on a patrol rifle.

The real question is why more departments don't allow officers to purchase their own patrol rifles. Set a standard (make, model, configuration) and let the individual officers bear 99% of the start-up costs of equipping the department with rifles.

As to why the M16 has been more popular, the reasons are legion. A lot of cops are former military, and have experience with the platform. The M16 is easier to configure for the job. The ammo is cheaper. Duty ammo has less overpenetration issues. Duty ammo for the M16 does not suffer from most of the problems (real or perceived) of military ball ammo. Modern doctrine (manual of arms, etc) is built around the M16. The engagement distance for the patrol rifle is almost 100% within 100 yds, so the extra range of the 7.62 round is moot. The supposed reliability problems of the M16 (real or imagined) are minimized in the patrol rifle program, where weapons are kept clean and secured until needed, then shot a relatively small number of times, then cleaned and secured again.

I'm not saying that there is no use for the M14 in a patrol capacity, especially in a rural environment. It's just not as generally useful as the M16.

Mike

 

[Mk VII]

The Defense Reutilisation & Marketing Organisation makes surplus Federal government equipment available for loan or sale to other federal and state governmental agencies. This applies to all sorts of things, not just firearms.

 

[tacmedicp94]

The snipers on our SWAT team both have department issued M14's, these were purchased by the department at the snipers request. The M14's are used if the threat/target is going to be under 100 yards, for longer shots both snipers have custom built rifles in 308. How long the rifles have been in the department I'm not sure of. I've been involved in SWAT for just over 3 years and both rifles were there when I started. The reasoning I've been given for the M14's is the ability to have a quick follow up shot when shooting through glass etc. which may deflect the initial bullet. With the Iron sights I've seen these guys shoot nickles at 100yards.

 

[gunnutery]

Coronach, thanks for you help. DRMS was correct. He gave me links and info about how to go about it (assuming my Chief will concur). The guy I just talked to on the phone said that he knew of some agency in Florida that got a striker!!!

(probably outfitted a bit different than this one I just googled)

 

[Bluehawk]

If you disable the "fun switch" I assume you have to take the auto sear and selector switch out and replace that with an AR15 part. Doesn't that just make it simply a AR15...in a sense? Meaning it simply becomes a semi-auto. Why bother??

I should have been more specific...I meant why bother going through the hassle of removing the full-auto parts? You don't have to buy semi-auto parts...simply drill a small hole for a pin just a hair past the point of the selector switch at the Semi position to block further rearward movement...insert pin. If full-auto is needed...remove pin. There are times when full-auto is required...such as the great bank robbery in Hollywood/Los Angeles not too many years ago.

 

[NoirFan]

When I was a State Trooper back in 03 I had a M16 and a M14, yes M14 not M1A, in the trunk of my car.

Hi Gus, in what situations were you supposed to use one or the other? Can you describe the training program for the M14?

Thanks

 

[ClayinAR]

Screener

Before I retired from a public university I was a federal screener. Meant I could get federal surplus stuff for the university. Theoretically I could have gotten M16's pistols, etc. Usually actually looking for other equipment, tractors, etc. plenty available, but you had to pay transportation costs. Seems like all the good stuff was on Guam or Bum**** Egypt.
Due to the wars all M16's, etc. were never actually available. Deal was you paid but ownership stayed with govt. At least on guns.
I never actually was able to get anything from the feds. Got plenty from various state agencies tho.
A cop told me his M16 was taken back by the govt when war started.

 

[SharpsDressedMan]

I'd like to see any M14, and ANY shooter, that could consistently (more than once would be fine) hit nickels at 100 yards with or without iron sights.

 

[Limeyfellow]

Bluehawk: I should have been more specific...I meant why bother going through the hassle of removing the full-auto parts? You don't have to buy semi-auto parts...simply drill a small hole for a pin just a hair past the point of the selector switch at the Semi position to block further rearward movement...insert pin. If full-auto is needed...remove pin. There are times when full-auto is required...such as the great bank robbery in Hollywood/Los Angeles not too many years ago.

Most police departments still think fully automatic fire is too much of a risk of stray rounds for anyone but SWAT forces, since rifles are issued in many police cars nowadays just in case. If they don't have constant training in fully automatic situations it just isn't worth the risk and the increased insurance cost. Besides the Hollywood bank robbery police would have been better off with a much bigger round and just shoot through the armour. A .308 hunting round or above in a Remington 700 would have taken them down much quicker than the AR-15s they ran too, but you go with what looks tacticool in such a panicky time I guess.

 

[SharpsDressedMan]

As noted above, full auto with the M14 has never been what experts would call "controllable". The military figured that out pretty fast, and most fire was regulated to semi auto, except designated squad members, or extreme circumstances.

 

[Newton]

When our fish and game wardens see fit to carry an M14 around with them while they check fishing permits, you have to wonder.