Surplus value after gunsmith?

[sawdeanz]

With regards to the value of a surplus rifle, how do you think minimal gunsmith work affects the value?

Going to see about getting the headspace fixed on my spanish fr 8 mauser. I'm hoping its not as bad as I'm afraid it is, but chances are, to make it safe i will have to get the barrel set back. Am I correct that this would be done by grinding it a little, and screwing it back on? This could also mean a new notch for the front sight assembly would have to be grinded (but hidden from view. If this is the only thing that has to be done, would it lower the value at all since it was you know opened up and stuff?

Any way, I'm going to be getting it looked at this week, and will have to decide whether its worth doing. Otherwise it seems to be very nice, every last piece matches, the condition is great. I like the history in guns, but I want a shooter. These aren't exactly Hitlers personal sidearm type historical value but their value has been going up and I have (knock on wood) many years ahead of me that I want to keep this rifle.

If it were me valuing a gun I would personally pay more if I knew it had been checked over and fixed up (as opposing to taking a chance that a 50 year old rifle happens to be perfectly safe), but then maybe collectors would rather have an out of spec rifle if it remained all original. I suspect in my case it won't make much of a difference, I mean after all its got the darned Century Arms roll marks.

 

[rcmodel]

The proper way to do it is machine one thread (.083") off the barrel shank and shoulder.
That will allow the barrel to be set back one complete turn and tighten so the sight is still in the right place.

Then the chamber would be re-cut slightly deeper to properly set the headspace with a chamber finish reamer & .308 headspace gage.

It would have little affect on the collector value of an FR-8.
However, it will cost about as much to have done as the rifle is worth.

rc

 

[LAGS]

@ Sawdeanz
What you are going to have done is fine and if done the proper way may make your rifle shoot better, and be safer if the headspace is truely excessive.
Why do you suspect that it has too much headspace ?
And if the barrel is reset, and the front of the chamber is re-reamed, it could clean up the front of the chamber that often gets worn or pitted because of abuse or corrosive primers in the old ammo.
But Like RC said.
It isnt a cure all, and is not cost effective unless you have a rifle that is worth saving, and it has a Good Bore.
I dont think the rifle has any special " Collectors Value " but it will hold its Surplus Collector price if kept in good working order.
Do a full evaluation of the rifle before you decide to have work like this done.
Like find out what the headspace truely is, and if replacing the bolt to one that is closer to headspace spec's is a cheaper option.
Inspect the barrel and see if it is good enough for the money you are going to spend, and that will include Slugging the bore and Casting the chamber.
Then if you decide to Set the barrel Back, check the condition of the bolt lugs and the Mating surfaces in the receiver.
This would be a good time to Lap the Lugs when you have the rifle apart.

 

[Jim K]

How do you know the headspace is bad? Have you had stretched or separated cases?

Jim

 

[newfalguy101]

Done properly it wont have any effect on value.

 

[sawdeanz]

The primers were backing out of the shelfand they had a shiny area on the base, and that was with nato marked rounds. The gunsmith offered to take a look with his borescope so hopefully he can let me know if the barrel and throat have enough life to be worth it and find it what could be causing it

 

[LAGS]

A simple Go , No-Go headspace gage will tell you if the headspace is bad or excessive.
Then if it is, then check the condition of the bore to see if it is worth resetting.
You too may have Set Back in you receiver at the Bolt Lug Camming surfaces causing the excessive headspace.
But too hot of load for the rifle, or a Rough Bore can Mimick bad headspace, but that would be more indicated with Flattened primers more than primers backing out.
Does the rifle show the same signs with other ammo ?

 

[sawdeanz]

Honestly I'm sort of scared to try. It failed a 308 no go and I was hoping that it might still be within spec for nato but I can't find anyone with those gauges.

 

[LAGS]

The max . gage is called a Field gage.
It is .004 " longer than the No-Go.
But I would not use that old of rifle with Modern ammo that was only good on a Field Gage.
There is a reason you have too much headspace, and the issue must be identified first, and if possible Corrected.
You might have an oversized chamber, the bolt lugs or receiver worn, or there is lug set back in the receiver.
You might also have uneven bolt lug contact.
You could try a different Bolt and see if it lessens the headspace first, and then check that bolt for lug contact.
You can do that yourself with a Felt tipped pen and a little time.
We are here to help Bro.
There are plenty of Qualified members that can guide you thru what you need to do and how to go about it.

 

[BBBBill]

The .308 Win Go Gage is 1.630" vs. 1.635" for the 7.62x51. The .308 No Go Gage is 1.634" vs 1.6405" for a 7.62x51 No Go gage. So you are just past .308 No Go at minimum 7.62 Go. The .308 Field (reject) Gage is 1.6380" vs 1.6455" for the 7.62x51 Field gage. A military gun will be kept in service if it fails No Go and pulled from service when it fail the Field gage.
You can use a known thickness shim on the base of the no go gage to determine just how much headspace you do have. Some use electrical tape or paper shims. I've cut them out of steel or brass shim stock. And remember that the gun is 7.62x51, not .308 Win. 7.62x51 loads are not as hot as .308, case capacity is less, and there's fewer different bullets loaded in 7.62x51. Respect the gun for what it is and feed it only what it is built to handle. The SAMMI max for the .308 Win is 62,000 psi and the 7.62x51 max is 50,000 CUP (about 57,900PSI). That's only a little over 4,000 PSI difference, but the gun is old with unknown history.

 

[sawdeanz]

Thanks for all the tips. I think when I had it checked it failed the field a well, but like I said that was a 308. I don't have any bolts on hand, but I'm hoping the Smith will be able to tell me more. I had thought the headspace issue was just due to lug wear but you all have given me more to check which is great. I talked to a well reviewed smith today and he said many of the same things. He offered to check for free. I will ask him to check for bolt setback which I've heard can be an issue with the spanish ones. I have no problem sticking to nato rounds, but between the gauges and look of the nato headstamp brass it looks like something I'd wrong.

 

[LAGS]

Good Point BBBBill
Many of the surplus , especially the Spanish rifles with softer steel have been abused by shooting factory .308 loads, and have bolt Set back because of it.
Once the damage is done, it can be corrected in most cases.
But if Ignored, can get quite Dangerous very quickly

 

[LAGS]

The headspace gages between the 7.62x51 and .308 are not interchangable.
But you can use the .308 gages for the 7.62x51
It is the loading pressures that are different between the two calibers, exc The Match Gages, that increase by .001" for each gage
Ask any questions you want, and we can guide you to making the best decision possible for repair or retirement of the rifle.

 

[BBBBill]

Supposedly the FR8 rifles are much stronger than the FR7. I have no experience with either, but I'm sure there's a forum that covers such.

 

[4v50 Gary]

If the gun doesn't headspace, the next issue is does it close on a go gauge? If not, the barrel is removed, a chamber reamer inserted to the right depth and then reassembled to the receiver for testing. If it closes on a field gauge, then one thread is removed, the shank correspondingly lengthened and then the chamber reamed.

Done properly, nothing should be detected by the user.

 

[fguffey]

I'm hoping its not as bad as I'm afraid it is,

If you had the ability to measure the length of a case from the shoulder to the head of the case you could determine the length of the chamber. If you had the ability to measure the length of the case a new factory over the counter case from the shoulder/datum to the head of the case you could determine the effect the chamber had on the case when fired.

I have no clue as to the reasons you suspect the rifle has a chamber with excessive length from the shoulder to the bolt face.

4v50 Gary If the gun doesn't headspace, the next issue is does it close on a go gauge?

The bolt will close on a go-gage, concern starts when the bolt closes on a no go-gage. The advantage to reloading when matching case length to chamber length is the ability to adjust the length of the case to off set the length of the chamber when measured from the usual places.

Then there is the world of case forming, I form 8mm57 cases from 30/06 cases, there is no way I can miss unless I have a senior moment, as in 'right in the middle of forming the cases' I forget what I am doing.

F. Guffey

 

[LAGS]

The strength of the receiver has little to do with if a rifle is safe to fire if it has excessive headspace.
If there is too much headspace, then the case can stretch beyond safe limits and can seperate or rupture.
When the case seperates, even the strongest actions can receive damage.
But the differance between the strength between the FR7 and FR8 will only determine how much potential injury the shooter may suffer.

 

[Jim K]

Given the general softness of Spanish actions, I suspect the bolt lug seats in the receiver are battered, causing the excess headspace. While barrel setback can "correct" the condition, it will only recur if firing the rifle continues. It is very likely that the headspace was already excessive or on the edge when the rifle was sold by the Spanish government.

Jim

 

[LAGS]

@ Jim K
That was the case with the Spanish 1916 in .308 that I had.
I Lapped the lugs, and set the barrel back to correct the headspace.
It started increasing the headspace after a few years of firing.
So I pulled the barrel and rebarreled it with a Turkish 8mm small ring barrel.
The receiver handles the lower pressure cartridge much better.
I recently gave the rifle to " Armoredman " and he is going to use it with Cast Bullets or even reduced loads from here on out.
But it will handle the military 8mm loads, but a steady diet of those may start the problems all over again.

 

[morcey2]

Spanish 98's aren't known for being soft. The small rings (1893/1916) can be but still work quite well with 7x57 and other chamberings within reason.

I'd ream it out to 30-06 and just ignore the extra step in the fired case below the shoulder.

Another option is to form brass specifically for this rifle from 30-06 using existing 308 dies, but with some sort of shim between the shellholder and the sizing die. You could do the same thing with 308 brass after they've been fire formed, but you would be starting with stretched cases that may be compromised.

Matt

 

[fguffey]

I'd ream it out to 30-06 and just ignore the extra step in the fired case below the shoulder

Matt, I wouldn't, the 30/06 reamer will not clean up the 308W chamber, part of the 308 W shoulder/case body juncture will remain causing cases fired to have a ring around the case.

Forming dies, If I had one forming die it would be the 308 W, if I had two the other would be the 243 W forming die.

IF I wanted to know the length of a chamber from the shoulder/datum to the bolt face I would start forming cases, after forming I would start sizing them to fit. To be successful at forming the reloader must learn to form the cases with long case bodies between the shoulder and case head, not much, .010" covers most chambers.

F. Guffey

 

[LAGS]

With my 1916 I did form some longer cases out of 30-06 cases just using a .308 sizing die.
Then the first loading would perfectly fire form the case to the chamber.
Then they were neck sized only for reloading.
But with the chamber out of spec's, I couldn't in all honesty sell the rifle and take the chance that someone would try to fire regular 7.62x51 or .308 ammo in it and have a case seperation.
And I knew the chamber headspace would walk again if I set the barrel back a second time in the .308 caliber.
The 8mm was a nice option since I couldn't find a decent 7x57 barrel, and did not want to spend the money on this receiver to purchase a New Aftermarket barrel of any kind.
Besides, it gave me a use for the good 8mm barrel I took off the Turk when I made it into a 25-06.

 

[morcey2]

Matt, I wouldn't, the 30/06 reamer will not clean up the 308W chamber, part of the 308 W shoulder/case body juncture will remain causing cases fired to have a ring around the case.

That was the extra step I was talking about in my post.

 

[LAGS]

@ Morcey2
A fix like that would hurt the rifles Surplus Value.

 

[sawdeanz]

Given the general softness of Spanish actions, I suspect the bolt lug seats in the receiver are battered, causing the excess headspace. While barrel setback can "correct" the condition, it will only recur if firing the rifle continues. It is very likely that the headspace was already excessive or on the edge when the rifle was sold by the Spanish government.

Jim

This it's what I'm worried about too. The rifle is new to me so I don't know what was shot before. How would I check for this? After a barrel setback would I be able to prevent it from becoming an issue again like with hard chrome or something? If the metal has already been fatigued that way does that mean it will continue to grow even with proper or reduced loads?

Though I would like to reload someday, for the foreseable future I will be relying on factory ammo, so all this talk of fireforming and resizing is a bit over my head and won't really solve my current problem unless one of you is willing to buy it to reload for.

That gets back to my dilemma. Thursday I will be getting it checked thoroughly and maybe it will be a minor thing. But if not my options are, contacting the seller, but being a gunshow guy im guessing he will tell me it was sold as is. I can't morally sell it without divulging the issue and probably taking a big loss and I can't shoot it safely without spending another 150 at least. I can really afford only one rifle so keeping it as a pretty wallhanger is my last favorite option.