Surplus value after gunsmith?

[Jim K]

I am more confused than usual. If the bolt lugs or receiver lug seats are soft and being battered, adjusting the sizing die or making the cases longer won't solve the headspace problem. It will prevent case separation, but the ultimate result will be that the case will stick out of the chamber further and further as the lugs/lug seats wear until eventually enough of the case will be unsupported that it will burst and destroy the rifle.

Jim

 

[sawdeanz]

I am more confused than usual. If the bolt lugs or receiver lug seats are soft and being battered, adjusting the sizing die or making the cases longer won't solve the headspace problem. It will prevent case separation, but the ultimate result will be that the case will stick out of the chamber further and further as the lugs/lug seats wear until eventually enough of the case will be unsupported that it will burst and destroy the rifle.

Jim

Yeah like I said I don't reload so I never said I was thinking about doing that, I think some of the replies just got a little sidetracked because I didn't make it clear earlier that I wanted to be able to shoot it with factory ammo. I was wondering if there is a solution to the receiver lug seat issue

 

[fguffey]

F. Guffey

Going to see about getting the headspace fixed on my spanish fr 8 mauser. I'm hoping its not as bad as I'm afraid it is, but chances are, to make it safe i will have to get the barrel set back

Thanks for all the tips. I think when I had it checked it failed the field a well, but like I said that was a 308.

I am not confused, if the bolt closes on a field reject gage the difference in length between a minimum length, new, over the counter factory case and a chamber that that is field reject length .011" to .013"when measured from the usual places. Then there is the 'by how much'. the bolt closes on a field reject gage, I make gages from -.012" shorter than a go-gage length chamber to .016" longer than a minimum length case. For special occasions like, the bolt closes on a field reject gage, I form cases .010" longer than a field gage.

Case: From the datum/shoulder to the case head.
Chamber: from the datum/shoulder to the bolt face.

The FR 8 is a copy of the 98,

).[4] The FR-8 was developed from the Model 1943 short rifle, which was based on "large ring" Model 1898 Mauser action

It has a large shank barrel, it has a third lug. WHAT DOES THAT MEAN? Nothing so far, but in the world of guns and head space and the assumption every thing stretches and separates, well not exactly there is one exception, me.

The Model 98 had THE CLAW, I know the firing pin strikes the primer and then everything goes running to the front the receiver etc. etc.. not with the claw. All of my CLAWED rifles are control feed, the claw prevents my cases from making an attempt to out run the firing pin. I know, that makes no sense but when the claw prevents the case from taking off the case does not get the opportunity to stretch in front of the case head.

I have fire formed cases that had shoulders that were .128" from the shoulder in the chamber, the shoulder on my cases did not move when fired.

F. Guffey

You are assuming the lugs are set back, no one considers when rifle are shipped room is saved when the bolt is removed.

It is called case head protrusion, the Mauser has .110" +.005"for clearance between the bolt face and case head, the case head thickness for 30/06 surplus like LC has a case head thickness of .200", commercial R-P 30/06 case head thickness is .260". R-P cases formed to 8mm57 would be a better choice. Many experts have claimed case head protrusion on some of our military rifles have had .171" case head protrusion, and I disagreed because I measure case head protrusion on every rifle I take apart.

 

[fguffey]

delete

 

[BBBBill]

Forget about factory 308 WIN.

 

[sawdeanz]

I meant factory 762 nato

 

[Slamfire]

You can see how people have been educated by Gun Magazines and Gun Writers to believe that the metals in Spanish “small ring mausers” are bad but somehow the metals in Spandish “large ring Mausers” are good. I have found no indication that the plain carbon steels used in small ring Mausers are different from those used in large ring Mausers. The only possible differences are the quality improvements due to time and improved technology. But whether these improvements actually happened, or are only desires based on hope, is something we don’t actually know. None of us know what actually went on at the smelter or the factory floor.

308 Winchester cartridges operate at pressures above 8mm Mauser pressures and I believe the quality of these old guns are highly variable. If you are experiencing lug or receiver seat set back after firing factory 308 Win, the structural integrity of that receiver is not sufficient to use in any application, in my opinion.

You don’t want to be behind a soft receiver when the case head blows. National Ordnance M1903A3’s had a desired reputation for being soft, and people were injured.


This guy had one blow up on him due to the soft receiver stretching.

http://forum.pafoa.org/general-2/535...gun-broke.html
The owner reported he had only 76 rounds of factory ammunition before the lug set back caused a cartridge rupture.

The original post was on the old Culver's, which deleted all of its old messages after the update. Luckily I saved the pics.

This young man was very lucky he did not lose an eyeball. I expect he had more facial damage than what you see in these poor camera phone pictures.

And he did nothing that was his fault. He simply fired enough factory ammunition until the National Ordnance receiver failed.



















This is another account of a National Ordnance which blew up in the gentleman’s face.


http://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=8778&highlight=national+ordnance


Later he commented on his injuries

i was the guy who had the National Ordnance 03A3 blow up in my face. I like you am still pushing people away from those ticking time bombs they call rifles. I had one surgery after I last conversed with you. Had to have a tooth removed, piece of brass was blown into my nerve and the sun still burns my eyes from absorbing heat.

http://www.jouster.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2893

Another Gentleman whose Dad was saved from serious injury by retiring his National Ordnance when he experienced the first signs of case head separation.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=6853297&postcount=3

Thanks! This thing will get cleaned up and the firing pin removed to be a keepsake. Now that I saw the pictures of that guy with the injury and the ruptured brass I remember the same thing happining to my father. He fired a ball load, and the brass had three evenly spaced hairline ruptures in the same place. The gas blew back and caused the cocking piece to hit his thumb and almost break it. We thought it was an over pressure round, but now I bet it wasn't. He never fired it after that, and I guess it was a good thing. I'd be afraid to fire a cast bullet load in it at 1200 fps.

I'll just find a decent Mauser and use that instead.

Thanks again!!!
jim

 

[fguffey]

Slamfire1, case failure due to set back and case head failure are two different failures. I have cases that were determined to be suspect and sold for scrap before the Internet, by the time the Internet came along I had loaded some of them twice, I thought they were magnificent cases. After the Internet I moved the cases from new/unfired/twice fired cases to the collectable case drawer. Seems rumor has it the manufacturer took a short cut when annealing the cases. I did not test the cases to failure.

Set back, who measures? From the beginning it was possible to track the length of the chamber from the datum/shoulder to the bolt face. The first thing I check is the length of the chamber from the datum to the bolt face in thousandths, I have one rifle that has a chamber that is .016" longer from the shoulder of the chamber to the bolt face than a minimum length case when measured from the shoulder of the case to the head of the case. There is no ware on the bolt lugs and there is no set back in the receiver. I add .014" to the length of the case from the shoulder of the case to the head of the case. When I close the bolt on the case it has .002" clearance.

there is a link that is used to make a point, but as always it is full of 'must have been', we think it was caused by, it handled just like a little doll buddy then suddenly and all at once it fell into a little head, nothing before, then suddenly all at once it fell apart. I do not know what the shooter chambered, he claimed all he ever feed his 257 Weatherby were reduced loads and he claimed it must have been a double charge.

Do not get me wrong, I believe reduced loads are cute.

F. Guffey

 

[LAGS]

I think everone is getting sidetracked, and the OP is looking for how to fix His rifle so that he feels it is safe again.
The only way to do that is with a full tear down inspection.
Take off the barrel, inspect the bolt lugs and the camming surfaces in the receiver.
Inspect the Bore and chamber also, and see if there are any indications as to why he has so much headspace on " ALL " the parts.
It could be as simple as a bolt being previously changed.
And not Set Back in the receiver, or excessive wear.
But you can see if it is the case when the barrel is removed.
With all that information, then he can make a decision as to if he wants to have the barrel set back and possibly the bolt lugs lapped at the same time.
Then have the chamber reamed to the proper headspacing.
Like it was mentioned in one of the first posts, it is not a Cheap Fix.
But when done , you will be confident that you have a rifle that is safe to shoot.

 

[Jim K]

I think the first thing the OP should do is have the rifle checked with headspace gauges, if that has not been done. If it fails a Field Gauge, I would recommend it be put away or torn down for parts; an FR-8 is simply not worth hundreds of dollars of gunsmith work to correct a major problem. The money would be better saved toward the purchase of a good sporting rifle or a higher quality milsurp if that is what the OP wants.

Quite a few people think "excess headspace" is a myth or at least is no big problem. Others preach that some magic reloading technique is all that is needed to make a rifle safe no matter how much "headspace" is has. Slamfire's pictures show what can happen when that "mythical" condition is not a myth.

Jim

 

[fguffey]

I think the first thing the OP should do is have the rifle checked with headspace gauges, if that has not been done.

Originally Posted by Jim K View Post
I am more confused than usual.

Quote:
Going to see about getting the headspace fixed on my spanish fr 8 mauser. I'm hoping its not as bad as I'm afraid it is, but chances are, to make it safe i will have to get the barrel set back

Quote:
Thanks for all the tips. I think when I had it checked it failed the field a well, but like I said that was a 308.

I believe this rifle is a good candidate for a metal rod driven into the chamber/throat. sawdeanz, the OP 'thinks' the rifle failed the field gage test. If it failed the field gage test I would have to determine 'by how much'.

I think everyone is getting sidetracked, and the OP is looking for how to fix His rifle so that he feels it is safe again.

Lags, I believe there is too much finding fault with others.

Quite a few people think "excess headspace" is a myth or at least is no big problem. Others preach that some magic reloading technique is all that is needed to make a rifle safe no matter how much "headspace" is has. Slamfire's pictures show what can happen when that "mythical" condition is not a myth.

Jim K. I will assume you are not a reloader, if I am wrong I will assume you are not a case former. That leaves fire former, chamber a round, pull the trigger and 'WA-LAH' you are a fire former. Fire formers are the ones that chamber a round to determine what will happen. Some out of ignorance are forgiven, some go through life wearing it.

The case Salmfire1 pictured is dramatic when it comes to effect, the picture posted is not a picture of a case failure having to do with the length of the chamber/set back. The case pictured has case head failure.

F. Guffey

 

[Slamfire]

The case Salmfire1 pictured is dramatic when it comes to effect, the picture posted is not a picture of a case failure having to do with the length of the chamber/set back. The case pictured has case head failure.

And why case head failure and nothing to do with excessive headspace?

 

[rcmodel]

Because excess headspace results in a case separation 3/4" or so inside the chamber where the case web taper ends.
That is where the case stretches from excess headspace and that's where the case fails.

And its actually no big deal.
The military used to issue broken case extractors to every solder so they could get the broken case out and keep on fighting.

The resulting back end of the case separation still seals the chamber and there is no catastrophic gas leakage to wreck the rifle shown in the picture.

For a case head to blow out in the solid part of the case can only be the result of a defective case.

Or off the charts over-pressure to cause the case head to flow into the extractor cut and blow out.

One or the other caused the rifle in the photos to blow up.
Not excess headspace.

rc

 

[sawdeanz]

I believe this rifle is a good candidate for a metal rod driven into the chamber/throat. sawdeanz, the OP 'thinks' the rifle failed the field gage test. If it failed the field gage test I would have to determine 'by how much'.


F. Guffey

I had it checked by one of the big box stores in my area but knowing what I do now I'm taking it again to a real gunsmith for a second opinion. They were plopping the gauge in, slamming the bolt home, and ejecting the gauges on the floor.

I still don't know if this other guy will be able to measure it to a number, but if it closes easily on his 308 field gauge too there probably isn't much life even for nato rounds.

 

[BBBBill]

...They were plopping the gauge in, slamming the bolt home, and ejecting the gauges on the floor.
... if it closes easily on his 308 field gauge too there probably isn't much life even for nato rounds.

That was improper use of the gages. Read post 10 at the link below. 308 Field is not as long as 7.62x52 Field. So you're not getting a true reading on the status of the chamber. I'm not suggesting the you shoot/don't shoot the gun or that it is safe/not safe, because I don't have it in hand to examine for myself. Just that you're trying to judge the 7.62x51 chamber by 308 specs.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=9468682&postcount=10

 

[Willie Sutton]

Why don't you simply handload using neck only resizing (don't push the shoulder back when you resize) and enjoy your rifle? At that point you've left the "factory headspace" paradigm behind and are setting your own.

As to value... Well... To be charitable: that rifle is of going to have its value changed adversely by gunsmithing it. It's not going to have its value increased too much either. It's not a Holland & Holland or an unaltered German Mauser. It's a Spanish Franken-Rifle to start with. Most folks call them "beaters". No reason it can't be a shootin'-beater, but don't over invest in the thing.


Willie

.

 

[fguffey]

Quite a few people think "excess headspace" is a myth or at least is no big problem. Others preach that some magic reloading technique is all that is needed to make a rifle safe no matter how much "headspace" is has. Slamfire's pictures show what can happen when that "mythical" condition is not a myth.

Why don't you simply handload using neck only resizing (don't push the shoulder back when you resize) and enjoy your rifle? At that point you've left the "factory headspace" paradigm behind and are setting your own.

Mr. Sutton, read the quote above your quote. All of that posted by a member that does not know the difference between case head separation and case head failure. Head space gages are nice, the threads in my presses and on my dies afford me a luxury other reloaders self impose a denial it can be done. I form 308 W cases from 30/06 cases. With threads I can form a 308 W case to any length from the shoulder to the head of the case.

To answer your question, some do not know how to form a case to fit, some believe it is tacky, then there was Jimmy Dean, he said the chicken crossed the road just to show the opossum it could be done.

F. Guffey

 

[Jim K]

I would appreciate it if Mr. Guffey would explain to us the difference between case head separation and case head failure. I always thought that the first indicates some excess headspace, when firing results in a case separation (and an unusable gun), but seldom causes any damage to the gun or injury to the shooter. The second, as I understand it, is a blow-out of a case that is not supported by the chamber, which can be the result of very excessive headspace, leaving the rear sides of the case unsupported. (It can also be the result of a poor chamber design or out-of-battery fire, but those are other issues.)

Of course, I don't pretend to know as much as Mr. Guffey does, so perhaps he can explain it better.

Jim

 

[desidog]

There's also these....

I used a .308 -> 7.62Tok for a long time in my FR-7 before i got into reloading; of course, that was back when 7.62x25 was super cheap and plentiful... you could do the .32ACP which might be easier to find and is less pressure too.

 

[Slamfire]

Because excess headspace results in a case separation 3/4" or so inside the chamber where the case web taper ends.

That is where the case stretches from excess headspace and that's where the case fails.

Really? All case failures due to excessive headspace occur in the chamber? They all fail the same way, can’t fail in any other way, and when they fail they all look similar after failure?

How much of a rifle case can stick out of the chamber (excessive headspace) and not have the sidewall rupture?

It is amazing when I think of it, the number of posters in this thread who use the term headspace and yet, don't have any idea why it is controlled. From reading their posts, headspace is something that they measure with gages, more is bad, obviously, and less is bad, obviously, but that is the limit to their understanding. When someone states that excessive headspace will only result in case head separations up in the chamber, I find that incredible.

Given that young man was shooting factory 30-06, I really doubt that his blowup was due to excessive pressures. Given that National Ordnance receivers have a history of being soft, it is more credible that as headspace grew, more of the sidewall was sticking out of the chamber. Here, the sidewall burst where it was not being supported by the chamber. What happened afterwards to the case is unpredictable, but the pictures obviously do not meet yours or Guffey’s expectations of what should have happened.

They were plopping the gauge in, slamming the bolt home, and ejecting the gauges on the floor.

These guys were too incompetent to know they were incompetent. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect You lower the bolt as slowly and lightly as possible to “feel” the resistance. Due to the leverages created by the cams, you lose sensitivity and one must be very mindful about that when measuring headspace dimensions. Slamming the bolt home is an abuse of the gages.

 

[Jim Watson]

From post #39/40, we don't know what the headspace is.
It might be fine, if checked properly.

If not, it is just a darned shame that gunsmiths don't work cheap any more. A teardown inspection to determine the cause of excess chamber headspace would probably cost more than the rifle did to start with. Correcting excess headspace by setting the barrel back and rechambering definitely would.

If it were found to have excessive chamber headspace due to a long chamber, not setback of soft bolt lugs or receiver abutments, the Guffey system would allow handloading with little fuss after the initial adjustments and case forming.
Q: Would you worry about shooting factory loads if the somewhat stretched brass was not to be reloaded?

Q2: Somewhat related. Back when you could get 7mm Remington Rolling Blocks for a song, we were routinely warned that even a pristine example would show excessive headspace. Was this due to a change in specifications, or did the Rolling Block just need some slop to function with smokeless ammo?

 

[4v50 Gary]

National Ordnance was a California based maker and they used cast investment receivers in the day when that technique was not widespread among gun makers.

 

[Slamfire]

This web page has excellent information on National Ordnance:

http://www.m1carbinesinc.com/carbine_natord.html

 

[4v50 Gary]

Good info Slamfire1.

 

[fguffey]

Given that young man was shooting factory 30-06, I really doubt that his blowup was due to excessive pressures. Given that National Ordnance receivers have a history of being soft, it is more credible that as headspace grew, more of the sidewall was sticking out of the chamber. Here, the sidewall burst where it was not being supported by the chamber. What happened afterwards to the case is unpredictable, but the pictures obviously do not meet yours or Guffey’s expectations of what should have happened.

Guffey’s expectations? I have asked the question" "Where are all if the 03 experts?" Almost ever time someone quotes Hatcher as in "Hatcher said etc.". I also ask the question "How much case head protrusion does the 03 have?" then I bring up the subject of shell holders and deck height. The deck height of the shell holder is greater than the case head protrusion, deck height is .125 and the case head protrusion for the 03 is .090", I know that confuses everyone.

Back to the experts of the 03, the 03 has a third lug, unlike the Mauser the 03 third lug is exposed, meaning? Anyone can track bolt set back in thousandths from the factory to destruction, no one did, no one does except ??

The maximum amount of set back is limited by the gap between the third lug and the front of the rear receiver ring, problem, no one measures the gap. I have 03s with gaps of .008", I have Remington's with gaps of .035", the larger gap is by design, replacement bolts had the third lug forward of the lug on bolts made earlier.

http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CC_Drawings/Rifle/30-06 Springfield.pdf

Back to the case head protrusion of.090" for the Springfield, the .090" is measured from the bottom of the extractor groove, not from the face of the cone, that leaves less case head protrusion for the rest of the case head. .090" puts most of the case head into the chamber with only the extractor groove protruding.

The case pictured in Slamfire1's post does not demonstrate case head separation, the hole in the head of the case matches the position of the extractor cut for an 03, the hole in the case does not extend forward beyond the extractor groove.

The Mauser has .110+/- a few case head protrusion from the face of the barrel, when clearance is added or someone is cutting the chamber .005" is added for clearance, the .005" assures the owner minimum length/full length sized cases will chamber. And? No one can measure case head protrusion on the Mauser without removing the barrel, well that is not absolutely true, I can.

I purchased cases that were sold for scrap, at the time no one considered cases sold to an iron and metal scrap yard would show up on a reloading bench. There was a concern the case heads were too hard and had no give, it was believed the cases would support the pressure or rupture/fail. The cases when loaded did not have a way of tracking case head expansion. Normally the case head expansion is .00025"+/- very little. I loaded and fired 40 of them twice then found there could be a problem with the manufacturing process. I move the cases from one drawer to the collectable drawer next to the clandestine BM cases.

I have fired 8mm57 ammo in an 8mm06 chamber, too much head space? The difference in length between the 8mm/06 chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face and the 8mm57 case when measured from the shoulder to the case head was .127", when fired the shoulder of the 8mm57 case did not move, the case did not take off for the front of the chamber when the primer was hit by the firing pin, the case did not stretch between the case head and case body.

The case body got longer from the case head to the shoulder/case body juncture and the case shortened from the case mouth to the head of the case. The neck of the case gave up its place (length) on the case to become part of the shoulder.

I am not infatuated with head space, I am the fan of cutting down on all that case travel. Case head and travel, there are times the case head does not take off and travel, at the same time the shoulder on the same case does not take off for the shoulder of the chamber, after firing the shoulder that is formed is not the same shoulder the case started with, there are times the old shoulder becomes part of the case body and part of the neck becomes part of the new shoulder. I do ask: "Have you ever scribed a case before chambering at the case body/shoulder juncture?