Surplus value after gunsmith?

[Slamfire]

Guffey, I am glad you are not one of those who believes chamber headspace is only to be considered when pushing back the shoulder of a sized cartridge. Very few people understand how important it is to a firearm designer to design a breech mechanism that maximizes case support and minimizes case head protrusion. That same Gen Hatcher taught all these people that a case is a structural element, that it must carry load or those same 03’s would break due to bolt thrust. Which is true for single heat treat receivers, one million of which so defectively built, are so weak, they are likely to shatter with any bolt thrust, or if dropped on the floor, or it hit with a 5/8” combination wrench. When authority figures lie and misdirect failures, it creates weird theologies, confusion and cognitive dissonance in those who do not have the confidence or background to challenge the lie. In fact, the case is a gas seal that is always (at least in high pressure cartridges) acted upon above the yield limits of the material. Any person that believes it is a structural load carrying member will find out the exact opposite after a side wall or case head burst.

In so far as case head protrusion, Otteson, in his book “The Bolt Action”, says that “ordnance drawings for the Springfield specify 0.147 to 0.1485 in”. In the same book Otteson says that the great Mauser 98 does it with 0.105 inches. Lesser case head protrusion is always better, from a case support viewpoint, than more. So if you can set up an 03 barrel to your measurements, that is fine.

The case pictured in Slamfire1's post does not demonstrate case head separation, the hole in the head of the case matches the position of the extractor cut for an 03, the hole in the case does not extend forward beyond the extractor groove.

You and I are not going to agree on this, for the reasons I stated earlier, but so what, I hope we would both agree that any receiver experiencing receiver seat set back is not an appropriate candidate for gunsmithing.

I do ask: "Have you ever scribed a case before chambering at the case body/shoulder juncture?

No, I am curious as the point you want to make on this, is it that the shoulder can move? I would agree on that.

 

[fguffey]

You and I are not going to agree on this,

A book published in 1952 post pictures of failures, the author used the term 'case head burst'. The head of the case failed because it burst, caused by the excessive pressure. He did not post a picture of a case with incipient case head failure, case head separation or excessive pressure crushing the case head, he posted a picture of a case head that ripped apart. The case head did not rip apart because of an unsupported condition or case head protrusion.

I purchased military surplus cases that were suspect, suspect because it was believed the annealing process compromised the case heads. In all appearance they were magnificent cases. I fired 40 of them twice each then moved them to the collectable brass drawer next to the clandestine BM head stamped cases.

Case head protrusion and unsupported case head, I always have less case head protrusion than I have unsupported case head.

F. Guffey

 

[Reloadron]

It would seem all of this began way back here. That thread does include some pictures of the extruding primers. The final post in that thread reads:

It was just one of the big box store smiths do I don't know which gauges out if he knew how to use them, I didn't know at the time what I know now, but I'm still not sure how to tell a competent Smith from a dumb one. I'll ask around for some recommendations in my area.

Now I suggest you find a competent gunsmith in your area who can thoroughly inspect your rifle and has the correct tools and gauging to accomplish that task. Try and get some references from other shooters in your area as to who a competent smith might be.

While pictures are nice a big part of the problem here, as I see it, is the members, even the sharpest members can't actually see and hold your rifle and inspect it first hand. This sort of leaves everyone speculating which doesn't always go well.

Purely my take and opinion but I believe you need a good competent smith to inspect the rifle. Got any local gun clubs? Maybe someone could suggest a good smith?

As to the main question in this thread? I agree with those who say the value of the rifle will not change. While the FR8 Mauser is a nice little 308 rifle they are not quite highly sought after collectables. They are what I call a shooter and not a safe queen to be prized. I also agree it would likely cost more than the rifle is worth to have some of the proposed work done.

Ron

 

[fguffey]

Delete

 

[fguffey]

Quote:
I do ask: "Have you ever scribed a case before chambering at the case body/shoulder juncture?

No, I am curious as the point you want to make on this, is it that the shoulder can move? I would agree on that.

Sequence of events: I do not have the ‘repeat after me’ approach. For example, “the firing pin strikes the primer then the bullet, powder and case take off, driven by the firing pin, to the front of the chamber until the shoulder of the case hits the shoulder of the chamber and then? the case stops running from the firing pin long enough for the firing pin to crush the primer”. There is something wrong with that sequence of events.

I have fired 8mm57 ammo in an 8mm06 chamber. Had the case, bullet and powder taken off for the front of the chamber the case would have suffered case head separation. The shoulder on the 8mm57 case is .127” from the shoulder of the 8mm/06 chamber. The 8mm57 case shoulder did not move, when fired it was erased, it became part of the case body, had I scribed the case body/juncture the case would have displayed an artifact of the case body/shoulder juncture, the scribed line would prove the shoulder did not move. When fired a new shoulder was formed. Not perfect but the distance between the scribed line and new case body/shoulder juncture would be close to .127” apart.

If the scribed line and the new case body/shoulder juncture were the same it would prove the case ran to the front of the chamber, the case locked onto the chamber wall and the case head was driven back to the bolt face. If the case body was locked onto the chamber wall and the case head is driven back to the bolt face the case must stretch between the case head and case body.

When forming cases I do not want the should to move, my shoulder do not move, when my shoulders move I am doing something wrong. I form new shoulders, even when I fire form, I erase the old shoulder and form a new shoulder, I am the fan of cutting down on all that case travel.

Hatcher was a fire former, he created a wildcat I call the Hatcher 30/06 + .080”, Hatcher’s shoulder did not move, it was erased. Had Hatcher scribed the case body/shoulder juncture he would have understood the difference in length between the chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face and the case from the shoulder to the case head had exception when blaming ‘HEAD SPACE’ for everything.

For years the story started with ‘Hatcher said...’ then the story said he used a Springfield, after that I ask, “where are the Springfield experts?” No one ever raised their hand and said they were 03 experts. Had they made the claim I would have asked “Did someone hand Hatcher the wrong 03?”.

F. Guffey

 

[Reloadron]

Guys, this is what it is all about, this is an image from the previous thread I linked to.



His primers are backing out. So the question is why?

Ron

 

[fguffey]

His primers are backing out. So the question is why?

the question is

“Did someone hand Hatcher the wrong 03?”.

For years the story started with ‘Hatcher said...’ then the story said he used a Springfield, after that I ask, “where are the Springfield experts?” No one ever raised their hand and said they were 03 experts. Had they made the claim I would have asked "Did someone hand Hatcher the wrong 03?”.

Reduced loads are cute. I am not the fan of reduced loads. Then there are those that partially seat a primer in a case with no powder. no bullet. They think they get the same effect when determining the length of the chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face. I have always suggested they develop a method and or technique to determine if the case has enough travel, if in their effort they can determine if the case has that much travel they do not need to use/measure the protruding prime.

F. Guffey

 

[Reloadron]

Guffey, Hatcher is dead, long live Hatcher.

Reduced loads are cute. I am not the fan of reduced loads. Then there are those that partially seat a primer in a case with no powder. no bullet. They think they get the same effect when determining the length of the chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face. I have always suggested they develop a method and or technique to determine if the case has enough travel, if in their effort they can determine if the case has that much travel they do not need to use/measure the protruding prime.

Reduced loads have nothing to do with this that I am aware of unless the factory Seller & Bellot ammunition pictured above was reduced loaded. How did we even get to reduced loads?

I admire Hatcher but neither Hatcher nor his writings have anything to do with this. Unless we plan to bring Hatcher back from the grave to explain why the primer in the picture is backed out. I don't know why but would like to know what Guffy thinks about the picture? Not what Hatcher may have thought.

Thank You
Ron

 

[sawdeanz]

Its at the shop now, with someone who actually fixes mausers for a living not those jokers at gander or something that can only drift sights. Said he would look at it and give me a call today. Left him with some of the fired cases to compare as well. I like the rifle a lot but I don't think I like it enough to pay to get it fixed, I may just return it and use the money for something a little less complicated. I'll update when I hear back.

 

[fguffey]

Reduced loads have nothing to do with this that I am aware of unless the factory Seller & Bellot ammunition pictured above was reduced loaded. How did we even get to reduced loads?

Reduced loads have nothing to do with this

If the case was/is a Seller & Bellot and loaded at the factory they failed. the sequence of events claim the case expands and locks into the chamber then! the case head moves back to the bolt face, when the case body is locked onto the chamber and the case head is driven back to the bolt face the case stretches between the case body and case head. If the case head is not driven back to the bolt face the primer will not be seated and will protrudes.

As described, it is possible to partially seat a primer in a case with out powder and bullet then chamber and allow the closing bolt to seat the primer. Point, the picture you posted is a picture of a reduce load or a picture of a protruding primer that did not get seated because of clearance..

F. Guffey

 

[Reloadron]

If the case was/is a Seller & Bellot and loaded at the factory they failed. the sequence of events claim the case expands and locks into the chamber then! the case head moves back to the bolt face, when the case body is locked onto the chamber and the case head is driven back to the bolt face the case stretches between the case body and case head. If the case head is not driven back to the bolt face the primer will not be seated and will protrudes.

As described, it is possible to partially seat a primer in a case with out powder and bullet then chamber and allow the closing bolt to seat the primer. Point, the picture you posted is a picture of a reduce load or a picture of a protruding primer that did not get seated because of clearance..

F. Guffey

I agree and then if that is the case and it was the ammunition we should know soon. I believe but may be wrong that trying other ammunition was suggested in the previous thread. I haven't a clue if any other ammunition was tried.

Ron

 

[sawdeanz]

It was the rifle, I guess I have more to learn about picking out guns, tis a bummer.

 

[Reloadron]

It was the rifle, I guess I have more to learn about picking out guns, tis a bummer.

Don't even let this get you down. There is no way for the average, even average knowledgeable rifle buyer to catch a problem with headspace or similar unless you are shopping with a pocket full of gauges and know how to use them. Yeah, it's a bummer but not something easily prevented, especially on a spontaneous spot buy. Anyway, don't let it get you down. Could easily happen to most people.

Ron

 

[LAGS]

@ Sawdeanz
Don't feel bad, and is is nothing you could have caught without having a Headspace Gage with you and like was said before by someone, Knowing How To Use It Properly.
I bought a Ruger 77 old model Brand New for my wife in .308.
I never checked it for headspace for 10 years, and she had only fired one box of ammo thru it.
She said it Kicked too much, and I just thought it was her being short.
But when I checked the headspace, it closed on the No-Go Gage, and Barely passed on the Field Gage.
And I have had freinds do work on their Ruger Rifles over at my house also, and I checked the headspace on those when they were over.
I would say 8 out of 10 that I checked would close on the No-Go gage but not the field gage.
Most were in .308 or 30-06.
So, How many of you check the headspace on a Brand New Rifle ?
And How many rifles are out there that actually have a headspace issue and dont show excessive signs of case stretching , or people dont reload for it, so they never look at their brass very closely ?

This story is true, and I still have the Ruger .308 that I got in the Divorce, and the headspace is still the same.
I dont shoot it much, but never got around to setting the barrel back.

 

[fguffey]

“So, How many of you check the headspace on a Brand New Rifle ?”

I do, that would be 3 rifles in 45 years. I purchased a Model 70 300 Win Mag. with the ugliest, largest chamber I have ever seen, I called Winchester, they suggested I call shoot it more, I never figured that one out, if the chamber is too large how is shooting the rifle more going to heal the chamber? In the beginning they thought I was difficult, after that they decided I was impossible, I wanted a rifle with a chamber that matched my dies or I wanted a set of Winchester dies that fit their chamber.

One of the other Brand New rifles was a non-Weatherby 300 Win Mag, sizing cases fired in the non-Weatherby was effortless. After 74 rounds the non-Weatherby shot one hole groups. The Model 70 Winchester shot patterns like a shot gun. I sent the Winchester back after the local warranty smith had a try at it. I checked on progress after he had it for over a month, he informed me the chamber was too large, and I ask, “When did it get too large? “Was it after you honed, polished and reamed?” and he said “NO, it was too large when you brought it in”. He returned it to Winchester.

Winchester returned the rifle in a new box.

All the other rifles that were not a ‘Brand New Rifle’ I checked after purchasing then went to the range to check for accuracy. There were surprises, meaning most I purchased for parts and builds. One M1917 (the ugliest) I purchased for $120.00, nothing I can do to improve the accuracy, Remington 03 (Santa Fe) before 03A3, same thing, a last ditch Mauser, it was finished with shoe polish on the stock and the metal was dipped, I thought the bullets were tumbling, all three shot groups were touching.

The rifle failed? By how much, and why?

F. Guffey

 

[sawdeanz]

He said it was like 12 thousandths over, and that the barrel want good enough to be worth setting back, and that the throat was shot out. Problem now is I contacted the seller with my issue and he wants to charge a 20% restocking fee. And that's only after he checks it with his gauge cuz he doesn't believe me. Seems dishonest to me so I'll have to talk with him a little bit more. If it was just the barrel I wouldn't mind but I don't feel safe even just shooting it, I feel like that warrants a little bit better treatment. Are most private ffl's this obnoxious?

 

[BBBBill]

Some are that obnoxious. Most are that ignorant. The lack of knowledge and misinformation in the gun world never ceases to amaze me.

 

[Reloadron]

He said it was like 12 thousandths over, and that the barrel want good enough to be worth setting back, and that the throat was shot out. Problem now is I contacted the seller with my issue and he wants to charge a 20% restocking fee. And that's only after he checks it with his gauge cuz he doesn't believe me. Seems dishonest to me so I'll have to talk with him a little bit more. If it was just the barrel I wouldn't mind but I don't feel safe even just shooting it, I feel like that warrants a little bit better treatment. Are most private ffl's this obnoxious?

I can't speak for most FFLs today but my wife and I had a gun shop for 10 years and sold a ton of surplus between the shop and gun shows. Every surplus rifle I sold I inspected and fired. That includes a few hundred M1 Garands and countless Mausers as well as SKS and AK variants. Granted there was no Internet but if a customer ever had a problem I always fixed it or offered a full refund. A very good friend of mine has a good sized shop today. Matter of fact, Jim Davis of Northfield Gun & Tackle in Northfield Village, Ohio. Jim has no problem with returns and a very good reputation in the local shooting community. Most of the guys I know are straight shooters and fair. A 20% restocking fee is BS. What is he going to do, resell the thing?

Ron

 

[sawdeanz]

That's what I thought. He doesn't even have a store, just a gun show table so what is he restocking?

 

[Reloadron]

That's what I thought. He doesn't even have a store, just a gun show table so what is he restocking?

Yeah, that is BS. If someone buys something and wants to return it and the goods aren't damaged I can understand a restocking fee to a point. However, the guy sold you a defective rifle, going by what this gunsmith told you. Dealers like this guy give the good honest guys a bad rap. However, I guess you are sort of screwed.

Ron