Swaged Primer Pocket Problems

[coloradokevin]

Okay, I'm finally back to reloading, now that I have enough primers to comfortably load again. Tonight I decided to prime a bunch of .223 brass that I had previously prepped (I used CCI small rifle primers).

The brass was all once-fired Federal brass (FC headstamp), and each piece had been fired through an AR-15. After sizing and processing this brass, the primer pockets were all swaged with a Dillon "Super Swage 600" to remove the military crimp.

This is my first attempt at loading swaged brass in this caliber, and I'm having a few issues. On some of the pieces the priming process went just as it has on every piece of commercially purchased brass I have previously loaded. However, this wasn't true across the board:

-A number of pieces required considerable force to seat a primer, almost behaving as a piece of brass would if you had tried to seat a primer without first removing the military crimp.

-A number of pieces had pockets that were so loose that the primer practically just fell into the pocket, requiring virtually no contact with the handle on my loading press (A Lee Classic Turret).

-A few pieces had loose pockets when the primer was first being seated, but then left the primer seated high. To finish seating the primer to an appropriate depth on these pieces then required a considerable amount of force.

-Finally, one piece required a good bit of force to seat the primer, but the primer then hung loosely from the primer pocket (I could push it in and out with my finger, though it wouldn't come back out of the primer pocket).


So, with those issues highlighted, can anyone tell me where I might have gone wrong in this process? I strive for consistency in my handloads, and I don't seem to be getting it during this particular process. Is it an issue with my brass, my swager, my technique, my primers, or maybe something else entirely?

 

[Grumulkin]

Don't worry about the hard to seat primers as long as the primer goes into the primer pocket flush with the case head.

The cases with the fairly loose primers are on their last legs. As long as the primer is in the pocket securely, don't worry about it. Mark the primer with a permanent marker and when you shoot that cartridge, discard the brass.

As for the case with the primer pocket so loose you can push the primer in and out with your finger; remove the primer (you can use it in another case if you like) and discard the case.

Part of reloading is knowing how to inspect cases. In any large batch of fired brass, especially if you weren't the one that shot the cartridges in the first place, there will be some cases with problems that will need to be discarded.

 

[Walkalong]

Sometimes with crimped brass that has been swaged or reamed the entrance to the pocket is still a bit tight or sharp edged. When priming that brass the first time after prepping the pockets it is not unusual to have a few tough ones. Try rotating the brass in the primer tool when it is tough. That helps sometimes. I have ruined a few primers on poorly prepped military brass bought from Midway. I ended up re-prepping it, and they did better. After the first time priming and shooting, they do much better.

Dang shame to waste a primer these days.

Don't worry about the hard to seat primers as long as the primer goes into the primer pocket flush with the case head.

Yep.

 

[EddieNFL]

Sounds like varying web thickness. If you have multiple year headstamps, sorting will help. If they're all the same lot, you're stuck.

I sort by headstamp and generally find one or two in 100 that are still too tight. I don't recall ever having problems with over swaging, but I try to stay on the tight side.

 

[USSR]

Sounds like varying web thickness.

Exactly. With the Dillon Super Swage 600, you have to set it up with a case with a fairly thin web thickness. This means that some of the cases with thick webs won't fit in the SS 600. Just set them aside, and when you are all done, readjust the SS 600 for these cases.

Don

 

[GW Staar]

This is my procedure using the RCBS swager, but I'd bet the same things apply to the Dillon.

1.make sure you see a radiused edge around the primer pocket opening. (where the primer starts. If not readjust the swager until you see it.

2.Sometimes, on extra hard brass,the swage shears a bit and leaves the sheared ring of brass in the pocket...high primers or harder seating results. When testing my adjustment of the swager I check swaged pockets with a bent needle, to see it there's anything that catches (or pulls out).

3. Hard brass may even require two times through the swager, so if the needle detects a ridge...swage again, if that doesn't work readjust.

4. If I'm hand priming and a primer's hard to start...rather than forcing a start, or reswaging I first try reaming the edge just a slight amount with a chamfer tool. (that's just for the occasional stubborn example)

If I'm banging out numbers on my progressive, that occasional problem pocket can become a real pain in the butt. Therefore as a rule, I pop each pocket with the chamfer tool for a split second on my RCBS Trim Mate case prep center, on the way to the "in" tray.

About the loose primer pockets. Either they are trashed from repeated reloads or your Dillon can be adjusted to make it too big. I don't have that problem with the RCBS, because a stop on the swage button won't allow it.

You Dillon swager users will have to comment on that...if its even a problem. I've seen more problems of that sort after not being careful with a pocket uniforming tool.

 

[mallc]

Tight Pockets

Sometimes the crimper rolls more of one edge of the pocket than the other and the Dillon tool seems to push past it. I lightly chamfer crimped pockets after swaging to make sure they run smoothly on the progressive press.

Hope this helps.
Scott

 

[USSR]

Either they are trashed from repeated reloads or your Dillon can be adjusted to make it too big.

Trashed from repeated (and warm) reloads. The design of the Dillon Super Swage 600 is such that you cannot adjust it to enlarge the primer pocket itself.

Don

 

[Canuck-IL]

I ream all the pockets after the Super Swager so you notice if the swage wasn't set deep enough or if there's a slight brass deposit from an arc of the lip being pushed back in there.

The loose ones are just a fact of life with Federal - has a longstanding reputation for loose primers with relatively few reloadings compared to LC or Win.
/Bryan

 

[USAFRetired]

I've been prepping a bunch of 1968 Lake City 30.06 brass with an RCBS swedger. I had to adjust the internal rod differently than the instructions noted to prevent crushing the neck. Some of the brass has a REALLY hard time coming off the nipple, so I use a little LEE case lube on the nipple every 3-4 rounds. Makes it easier, but I still have to smack the handle pretty hard. (Old LEE classic "D" press)

I can definently feel the left-over ridge when I prime the cases, but after that initial "hump", they go right in.

 

[coloradokevin]

Thanks for the advice guys.

Just for clarification, all of the brass I was using was from the same lot, and it had only been fired during its initial factory loading (it was brass fired on our department's range for qualification, and I collected it following the qualification runs... as such, I'm sure of its origin).

 

[kelbro]

You have discovered why many of us will not waste our time on Federal 223 brass.

 

[medalguy]

What he said. In my opinion Federal is like Amerc brass, it deserves the scrap bin.

 

[Sport45]

I lightly chamfer crimped pockets after swaging to make sure they run smoothly on the progressive press.

I ream all the pockets after the Super Swager so you notice if the swage wasn't set deep enough or if there's a slight brass deposit from an arc of the lip being pushed back in there.

Why do you guys swage if you're going to ream anyway?

 

[Grumulkin]

Yea, why do you swage if you're going to ream anyway?

Federal brass does tend to get loose primer pockets earlier than some other brands but I've used and still use a bunch of it and it works fine for multiple reloads. I certainly would thumb my nose at free Federal brass.

For what it's worth, I use the RCBS swager for military cases. I have had exactly 0 instances of hard primer seating with cases processed using this device.

 

[ole farmerbuck]

What he said. In my opinion Federal is like Amerc brass, it deserves the scrap bin.

If you knew how many times i've reloaded some of this brass........I'll send you my address and you can send the 'junk' to me! I've had good luck with it.

That said, i'm talking about the Rem223. Not Rem 223(larger space)

 

[Canuck-IL]

As to swage and then ream, with the crimped pockets that are done as a ring encircling the primer you can't begin to get the reamer (Sinclair) in without a LOT of force and it's then likely to be slightly cocked at an angle, depending upon where the carbide tooth first dug in. OTOH, with a swaged pocket, it's a 1 second operation to drop the reamer in to scrape the bottom for a flat pocket ... and obviously a different feel if the swager wasn't set properly. Finally, I'd rather swage material into the head than ream it out. Logically that has to be good (if perhaps nonsignificant) for the tightness of the primer pocket.

Since it's a one time thing in the case's lifetime, I find it worth the effort to swage first ... plus it extends the life of the rather pricey reamer.

On the Federal brass life, the heads marked FC with a year have been good to me ... other stamps from Fed, not so much.
/B

 

[GW Staar]

Why do you guys swage if you're going to ream anyway?

Because, even though swaging is better when you're going to keep reusing the brass, there are those cases that just don't swage well. If you're reloading with a single station and a hand primer it's not such a big deal to "fix" the occasional ornery pocket. If you're trying to get something done without interruption on a progressive, that's a nuther matter.

That's why I "pop" them with the chamfer tool on my Trim Mate on the way to the in-bin. "Pop" in this case means just that...not a total ream job, just enough to ensure that the primers have a smooth chamfer to start sliding on. That little thing makes all the difference and stopped all the bugger rounds that stop or slow down one of my progressive sessions. Thought I explained it good enough in my first post...guess not.

 

[Sport45]

Yes, you explained why. I just didn't understand why someone would swage if it caused more problems than it solved. I wouldn't want to hunt for and pick out rings of brass from the bottom of primer pockets if a "pop" across the reamer would have solved the issue to begin with.

Now I'll perform a citizen's self-arrest for the grammar police. I've heard prepositions aren't to be used to end sentences.

 

[coloradokevin]

What he said. In my opinion Federal is like Amerc brass, it deserves the scrap bin.

Well, I have to say that I also haven't heard great things about Federal brass. But, my department has been running through quite a bit of Federal stamped ammo, and that's what I can get my hands on for free at the moment (the good part though is that the "price" I paid means that 1-2 loads out of the brass would still make it worthwhile to me).

To say that my department buys ammo in bulk would be a huge understatement. I believe we run through a couple million rounds per year, and I noticed that our rifle ammo switched from LC brass to Federal a year or two ago. Fortunately, I think I saw some LC showing up at our last qualification, so perhaps I'll luck into some decent brass again here in the future!

 

[Canuck-IL]

Free is a good price. As I said, some Fed headstamps are better than others. Section a case near the base ... if the web is about .072 thick, it's the better stuff - if less, I wouldn't reload it even once. THe stuff that is reloaded simply won't get as many firings as LC or Win before the pockets loosen.

Here's a good thread on it - with some divergent opinions.
http://www.usrifleteams.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=6071
/Bryan

 

[mallc]

It's one second insurance.

Why do you guys swage if you're going to ream anyway?

Because we're talking .223, .308, and 30-06 and you never know what conditions will be when the rounds get deployed. It ALL needs to be perfect ALL the time.

Thanks,
Scott

 

[Sport45]

Maybe we should ream the crimp and then swage. That way we wouldn't have to worry about getting the ring of brass in the primer pocket. Perfection!

 

[GW Staar]

Yes, you explained why. I just didn't understand why someone would swage if it caused more problems than it solved. I wouldn't want to hunt for and pick out rings of brass from the bottom of primer pockets if a "pop" across the reamer would have solved the issue to begin with.

Newer LC brass is softer, and I don't experience "rings" after swaging. Just the old stuff 60's and 70's. Since I happen to have 3000 rounds of the hardest brass in existence, I do see the anomaly.

If they could invent a reamer that didn't cut at a ridiculous angle, where you have to remove a lot of brass just to get to the bottom of the crimp, I would throw away my swager. They don't, and I don't care for the results of what they do make. That's of course, a personal preference, and works for me. I don't and won't tell you what you like, I just share what I like. If its not your cup of tea, then ignore it do it your way.

"Popping" the reamer just smooths the rim, it doesn't ream a chamfer big enough to bother me. I should have noted that after swaging, my time on the "Trim Mate" includes uniforming the pocket (immediately following the slight pocket chamfer). The old LC brass also wants to bind more often in the Uniformer, and that slight chamfer helps with that as well. As for any ring of brass left from swaging, it's the uniformer that does away with such, not the reamer. I check for them in a just a few cases to see if the whole batch has such to worry about.

BTW, any sentence I don't know how to finish good enough to please the English majors, I just end with.... (which means to hell with them)

 

[Sport45]

Don't get me wrong, I don't have anything against swaging primer pockets. I have and use a RCBS swager from time to time.