Swarming attacks?

[Tokugawa]

After watching a video of some of the swarming attacks on lone individuals by multiple attackers closing quickly and repeatedly punching and clubbing, my first thought was a gun would not be my first choice of weapon. A very sharp knife or pepper spray might be better to deal with multiple contact distance attackers. ( A Wakizashi or big bowie would be #1 but probably not legal anywhere.) No need to worry about bystanders, anybody within arms reach is a combatant, and slashing anybody within reach would dissuade them from closing , perhaps long enough to draw a firearm. The last thing they are expecting is a berzerker running amok with a blade.
Of course ,ideally, ones situational awareness would preclude being there in the first place , but these attacks seem to be initiated by one person sort of wandering up and striking without warning, and then the rest of the thugs converging to reinforce the attack.
Any thoughts?

 

[Biker]

Once caught in the general swarm, the best you can do is survive and maybe draw a little blood of your own in the process.

Biker

 

[ctdonath]

Pontificating...

Each participant in the attacking mob is still interested in his own existence. None are willing to "take one for the team". When any see another fall, all will likely back off. Focus on systematically taking out one at a time; soon all should be aware of what's happening and none will be willing to be next.

Old wisdom from Hagakure:

According to what one of the elders said,
taking an enemy on the battlefield,
is like a hawk taking a bird...
even though it enters into the midst of a thousand of them,
it gives no attention to any bird other than the one it has first marked.

/\/\/\/\/\/\/\

When one has made a decision to kill a person,
even if it will be very difficult to succeed by advancing straight ahead,
it will not do to think about going at it in a long, round about way.
The Way of the Samurai is one of immediacy
and it is better to dash in headlong.

/\/\/\/\/\/\/\

There is something to be learned from a rainstorm.
When meeting with a sudden shower you try not to get wet
and run quickly along the road,
by doing such things as passing under the eves of houses,
you still get wet.
When you are resolved from the beginning,
you will not be perplexed,
though you will still get the same soaking.
this understanding extends to all.

A swarm of humans is not like a swarm of bees. Bees are designed to do a task for the hive, and think nothing of dying in the act. Humans are designed for individual survival, and (unless a higher cause is involved, but we're discussing mere street crime here) will not take one for the team.

You can't take them all out at once, so focus on taking out one at a time until the rest give up. Realize that the rest will probably not be using efficient lethal force individually (but together they certainly are deadly); do not let their numbers bewilder you.

And in all discussions of fighting for one's life: accept that sometimes the dragon wins.

 

[jlbraun]

+1 to ctdonath for quoting Ghost Dog: Way of the Samurai.

 

[Fred Fuller]

John Holschen's technique (at least he's the first person I ever saw demonstrate it) in such a situation was to assume a blocking position with the support hand/arm (done vigorously it can work as an elbow strike on a close-in assailant as well). The support hand goes to the top/occipital lobe of the head to protect it while the elbow shields the head/face to some degree while at the same time clearing the support arm/hand out of the way of your draw to a pectoral retention position.

This sort of thing is better practiced in a force-on-force environment, I think. If you find Southnarc teaching in your area, this sort of thing is his forte'.

lpl/nc

 

[wheelgunslinger]

Donath took the words right out of my brain.

Whether in the poor industrial town I grew up in with poor vs. poor, military towns where it's uniform versus uniform (or locals), or college campuses where white collar greek lettered gangs did whatever they wanted, I've seen a few beat downs.

Falling down, covering, and waiting for them to tire of wailing on you while begging for mercy is a bad strategy since humans tend to become much more vicious when in groups involved in violence. We're hardwired for it. It's not a ghetto thing or a Central American torture chamber thing. It's a human thing. (ref: _The Politics of Torture_ )

Donath is right on when he picks that passage from the hagakure to illustrate his point.
Have a primary target and don't deviate until they go down and out. If you have to go down, go down fighting.

If you're armed, leave your weapon where it is until you get some space and time to properly deploy it without having it taken or rendered useless.

 

[sacp81170a]

leave your weapon where it is until you get some space and time to properly deploy it without having it taken or rendered useless.

And by "deploy" you mean "shooting to slide lock, reloading and shooting again", right? In a melee like that, there's no time to do the double, assess procedure. Shoot anything that presents itself as a target until you can escape or until there are no more targets. No warnings, no hesitation, just follow through and do it.

By this I don't mean be bloodthirsty, just get yourself out of the situation as quickly as possible. Call for help after the immmediate danger is over. Once you start shooting, you're committed to ending the fight. Those not stopped immediately, if they don't react by running away, will be preparing to do something worse to you than pummelling you with their fists and feet. There are many gang members who have BTDT and frankly, aren't afraid of being shot. That's just the way it is.

 

[El Tejon]

No, I wanted a pistol, not a knife or a club. I wanted a pistol as it could have prevented the beating I was in for had I not been more aware.

From a recent trip to Boston, http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=281565:

Great time as usual, however a little excitement this time. On Saturday morning I was the attempted victim of a mugging. 6:00 am, bright sunny morning.

Went up to Boston Commons from my hotel for a morning walk while the rest of the guys rotated through the bathroom. At Tremont and Boyleston I saw a guy on the corner, jumping up and making "hooting" sounds. Thought he was nuts or greeting a buddy.

Started to cross Boyleston at the crosswalk when I saw another to my left with his eyes locked on me and closing fast. From some reason I looked back and saw another coming fast from behind. I stopped, walked in place and thought about my options in an ambush and realized--3 on 1, run!

I split across the intersection, the way that was not blocked, and ran down Tremont to an alley (in retrospect not too smart) and then headed toward Chinatown. As I got halfway down the alley I slowed to a fast walk and looked back only to see the 3 of them rounding the corner.

I applied Puma style (aka I ran away wearing Puma sneakers) and ran toward Chinatown. My goal was to head for the Dunkin Donuts at the edge of Chinatown (near New England Medical Center) where I thought cops might be. No cops but I thought I had lost my alleged attackers as well.

Not wanting to wait and be surprised again, I ran across a busy street (Stuart, IIRC) like a TV cop through traffic back toward the hotel. I slowed down around the T station and looked around. No pursuit so I caught my breath by walking and panting and walked back to the hotel.

I was embarrassed and angry more than hurt or in fear. I hate being unarmed in big cities, but for some reason I thought I was immune to actual danger. Heck, the last time someone tried to mug me was a couple of cops in Chicago in '93.

Like coyotes I know that these people are encouraged by the lack of a chance that they will be shot dead for their crimes. I could not help think about our members who live in places where they are not allowed to fight back and how I must resolve to fight harder for our rights especially in places such as New York City, Boston and Chicago.

 

[wheelgunslinger]

And by "deploy" you mean "shooting to slide lock, reloading and shooting again", right?

er... no. I don't have slide on my wheelgun.

If you strike to cripple or kill (assuming you know how and aren't just trying something you saw on Walker: Texas Ranger) then the other guys may get freaked out by how fast you put one of their boys down and bug out. In which case unloading on them gets you a prison sentence faster than you can say "Bernie Goetz"

But I think your point is well taken.
A few punks trying to give you a beatdown is not nearly the same as being jumped outside a bar in Nantes France by a group of knuckledraggers from the 2REP of the French Foreign Legion or by a bunch of hoodrats from southcentral LA who are all strapped up and ready to rock.

But, I think that's the crux of it. What you do depends on what happens in each segment of the conflict which is why it's important to try to stay as coolheaded as you can and choose what to do instead of being overwhelmed by the situation.

And, that's the point of the Hagakure passage: Control the situation. Don't let it control you.

 

[Walkalong]

Each participant in the attacking mob is still interested in his own existence. None are willing to "take one for the team". When any see another fall, all will likely back off. Focus on systematically taking out one at a time; soon all should be aware of what's happening and none will be willing to be next.

Exactly - go on offense, focus on one and hurt them as badly as possible as quickly as possible.

 

[trueblue1776]

What's wrong with twistin' some testes?

I honestly love a good fight, though they don't usually come at suitable times to enjoy them.

I say once somebody has engaged you, don't back off, claw, knee, punch, bite, until they are beaten. If you back off, you are already beaten, and you've got to take your lumps.

 

[sacp81170a]

er... no. I don't have slide on my wheelgun.

OK, then just keep shootin' 'til it starts clickin'.

I agree, you're obligated to stop when the BG's retreat, but I can dump a whole lot of rounds into several targets in a very short period of time. I have no trouble emptying 35 rounds from a Glock 17 on targets within 15 feet in about 12-15 seconds. This is while I'm on the move, and I've also done extensive force on force training. Still, you gotta stop if they do, but that just means stop shooting. At that point, make like El Tejon and use your Puma style to extend and exit.

I hope never to run into a situation like the one described, but I'll not die from lack of shooting back, as someone once said. It's a matter of mindset and knowing when it's appropriate to go all out and when to restrain yourself. I've done some things that scared me later when it was time to go all out, but at the time I was perfectly calm. That adrenaline dump sucks.

 

[1 old 0311]

Actually Bernard Getz didn't go to jail for assault. He was convicted of carrying without a license.

 

[Working Man]

By Nicolo Machiavelli

Upon this, one has to remark that men ought either to be well treated or crushed, because they can avenge themselves of lighter injuries, of more serious ones they cannot; therefore the injury that is to be done to a man ought to be of such a kind that one does not stand in fear of revenge.

I know the context in which this is stated is a bit different but the principal
is the same.... If you choose to fight back you can not stop until they are
no longer a threat.

You yourself must become the threat in such a manner that they will have to
flee to prevent further injury to themselves. They gain nothing to continue the
fight while you gain everything in their retreat.

 

[Browning]

Personally the only thing that I think would work would be a gun (preferably with a fairly large mag capacity) with your back against a wall or other equally large immobile object where the crowd can't get behind you. Maybe my knife and club skills aren't up to the standard of some here, but I think that many are overestimating their skills with a knife and/or club and underestimating the people in the crowd.

You pull out a club or a knife and start stabbing or hitting people with it and they're going to try and take it from you to use on you. The only reason a gun might work is because it doesn't require much room to work in, many have large capacities, the large noise will scare the crap out of everybody (unlike a club or a knife) and each shot from a gun is decisive where a slash or stab or a hit from a club is not always decisive (you might not use enough force because you might not have enough leverage or space to work in).

Anybody here ever been attacked by up to 10 people at the same time before while you were only armed with a club? I have, when I was 17 I got jumped on the street outside a backyard party after I went looking for some individuals who threw rocks through my grandmothers kitchen window. I put three of them down with whacks from a tire iron after which one of them grabbed my club hand and I couldn't use it anymore. I started punching with my left and it got the guy off me put he didn't let go of the club and I couldn't use it and the crowd rushed in. I got in a few more punches and kicks and an eye gouge, but I was hit in the back of the head with a lead pipe (a girl I knew was watching from outside the house) after a kick to the head and it was "Good Night Irene". Supposedly they kicked me after I was unconscious for a few minutes, but they weren't around me when I woke up 5 or 10 minutes later.

I got in my car and took off. They called the police and tried to say that I attacked them without cause so the police initially put a warrant out for my arrest as they were the initial callers (the person who calls first is the victim, everyone else by default is the suspect), but the cops didn't see it that way after a short investigation and they decided to just ignore the whole mess and dropped the charges against me almost immediately.

The basic mistake that I made was in not keeping my back to a wall or other large object. They used that and got behind me after someone was brave enough to sustain a couple hard whacks to the face and shoulders in order to grab the club to get it away from me. They also obviously brought their own clubs, so it wasn't like I had a monopoly in that regard. I just had a little more freedom of motion as people were giving me a wide berth while still crowding in.

I heard later from some people who knew us both that one of the guys had a broken cheebone, one had some broken ribs, the other had a broken collarbone with some severe bruising to the face and I had a concussion with a depressed skull fracture and a little piece of hair and scalp missing from the back of my head where the lead pipe hit me.

So unless you're Jim Bowie or King Leonidas from Sparta and you're thinking that a club or a knife is going to let you prevail over a crowd of people attacking you in concert as a group, forget it. It just doesn't work out like you'd think in real life. You'll almost certainly get in a few blows and if that's all that you have, then go for it as they're going to beat you down anyway and it might as well go down with some pride and the knowledge that you fought back as hard as you could. But I'd much rather have a gun and using a gun would be warranted as you could easily end up getting killed if they kept on kicking you in the head and it's a classic disparity of force scenario.

When someone's hit in the head hard enough or hit several times repeatedly intra-cranial pressure (ICP) rises as a result of a blow or insult to the the brain and it could easily damage your brain and lead to you losing the ability to use your arms and legs or it could lead to you being beat to death if the pressure is bad enough and it isn't relieved. Stacked against those consequences for failure I'd rather have a gun as after you shoot a few of them (Which they richly deserve for attacking someone like a pack of Jackals), then the rest usually run. Ever seen a few videos of crowd behavior after someone starts dumping into the crowd? You'll see what I mean as the entire crowd parts as they run to the edges to get away from gunfire.

 

[Deanimator]

A revolver would be a VASTLY superior weapon to a knife in such a situation. Contact shots are ideal, and without the fear of going "out of battery".

An assailant can prevent the use of the knife simply by grabbing your arm. It's a LOT harder to grab somebody's trigger finger. If I can't shoot a specific attacker, I'll gladly go for potluck with any other in close proximity. They're all part of the same criminal conspiracy, and if one of them [and hopefully not me] dies, they're all subject to the felony murder rule.

Once you start shooting, and people start falling down and bleeding, I'm betting at least SOME of them are going to reconsider. Violent criminals almost always go after those perceived as little threat to them. If they were as "brave" as anti-gunners make them out to be, they'd be hanging around outside the JFK Center or Camp Lejeune looking for people to hassle. Mostly, they don't.

 

[wheelgunslinger]

so how do you handle the group once you manage to break loose, assuming that you have to open fire because you're in imminent danger?

Do you put two in each one, one in each, or what?

What would you do at this point?

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I know of a case of a swarming attack. A friend of mine restores antique cars, and he was alerted to a 1912 Dodge touring car in an old barn here in Arkansas. This car, which he has beautifully restored, was the car General John J. Pershing took into Mexico in 1916 when he commanded the Mexican Punitive Expedition.

He told an aide of his, Lieutanant George S. Patton, to take the car, go out to a local ranch, and contract for hay for the cavalry horses. While on this chore, Patton heard there were some Villanestas in a nearby hacianda. He drove over to check it out.

They were there, all right, with horses saddled and bridled in the courtyard. They heard Patton coming, and Plan A was to let him pass, then slip out and go the other way. If he came up to the Hacianda, Plan B was to suddenly ride him down -- a real swarming attack.

When Patton got out of the car, the hacianda doors burst open, and the mounted Villanistias came thundering out.

Patton, who competed in the Modern Pentathalon in the 1912 Olympics, drew his Colt .45. When it was over, he came driving back to Colonia Dublan with a dead Villanista general lashed to the hood of the car.

I always make it a point to see that car whenever the old car club is in town.

 

[brownie0486]

Crowd control due to multiple attackers?

No knife for me, thanks anyway, unless thats all I have at the time. Having trained in long knife [ bowie ] with Keating over many years the bowie would be my last thought toward resolution in this scenario.

I train people in a technique that empties a high cap mag in under two seconds to slide lock. Anyone in the path of the muzzle as it sweeps the crowd of attackers is going to get hit with multiple rds PDQ.

You'll have to be able to deploy the handgun to use the technique to begin with though, which you may or may not be able to get to [ it's all situationally dependant ].

An excerpt from a recent review of one of the students who learned this skill in last months Flagstaff, Az class.

I decided to take a class from Brownie on quick kill technique. We did this class In Flagstaff, AZ. July 2007. I can say it was the best training without a doubt that I have ever taken. He not only showed us these tecniques in an outdoor area where we could spread out, but he also has the motto of (NO ONE LEFT BEHIND); for two days we learned techniques, that when using our handguns from a holstered position was easy to grasp, easily repeatable, and he has easy names for evry one of these, techniques so as he he is teaching it they are easy to remember when he calls out a command to deploy and tells you what to do. (These names are such as the BUMP, Elbow up Elbow Down and the Quick Kill.) Best of all, these techniques require no sight aquisition on the gun at all. This is what makes them so fast and a lifesaver.

These skills also included running in multiple directions while shooting in multiple directions from strong side and weak, speed shooting for crowd control/coverage, shooting a target behind you without tuirning around, multiple target aquisition with speed and many others. Again I say all without using a sight on the gun and that was just the 1st day. The 2nd day we did force on force learning techniques of disarming the (person/scumbag/threat) and applying the techniques from the day before so we could get use to getting the upperhand by firing the 1st shots. Yes I said shots! Meaning it is so fast you can get multiples downrange accuratly before your opponent can even draw.

I've been training/showing others in this crowd control skill with a handgun since 81. It works well in this scenario if you can get the gun into operation under attack or have the time through awareness skills to deploy same before the action begins.

Brownie

 

[Browning]

wheelgunslinger: So how do you handle the group once you manage to break loose, assuming that you have to open fire because you're in imminent danger?

Do you put two in each one, one in each, or what?

What would you do at this point?

I guess I'd try two for each until they were no longer posed a threat because the rest were running away or until I ran out of ammo if they didn't. Anymore rounds than that and they might reach you before you got them in turn and any less than that means that you'd have less of a chance of a solid hit. 2 shots means two chances to put them down and any more than that and you'd be burning through your ammo which might leave you unprotected as you tried to reload.

Most firearms training schools don't teach you to reload as a bunch of people are trying to kick you in the head, so I'd prefer to conserve ammo actually in my pistol while at the same time making sure that they're actually hit.

Then I'd run like hell (the aforementioned Puma Defense, except I wear Vans) so that I could make some very important phone calls to the police and my lawyer. Hopefully I'd be the first to call so I'd have victim status and maybe a convienently placed video camera outside a local store to back up my story so it wouldn't just be my word against theirs that they tried to severely injure or perhaps beat me to death as a mob.

That's what I'd do anyway.

 

[Tokugawa]

Thanks for the replies- OK- we will toss the Miyamoto Musashi idea! The reason it came to me was seeing those attackers in close body contact , it seemed it would be very hard to draw a handgun while you were being beaten on. I have wondered about a pocket pistol for some time, for the ability to have it in hand, in pocket, so as to be ready, but not to alarm in case the threat does not materialize. I.E., you see a person slowly approaching , there are others standing around, your hand is casually placed in pocket, hand on gun. No attack, no problem.

 

[sacp81170a]

I train people in a technique that empties a high cap mag in under two seconds to slide lock. Anyone in the path of the muzzle as it sweeps the crowd of attackers is going to get hit with multiple rds PDQ.

Sounds like we have very much the same philosophy. I need to get in contact with you and maybe check out when and where one of your classes is.

 

[redneckrepairs]

my first thought was a gun would not be my first choice of weapon.

Well to each their own . For myself i want my little pistol , and its " Boarding house rules " ( Everyone gets one serving then them that want can have seconds ) . At the first flash and loud noise we will find out who the shy ones are , and my money says its all but the one busy on the ground .

 

[Snapping Twig]

Best thing to do is to take out the biggest, baddest one first. Eyes, throat and joints - take 'em all. No fair fight, no rules, maim the cretin so horribly the others are shocked into retreat.

Snap the neck, crush the windpipe, rip his nutz off his body, gouge his eyes out and when he screams, do it again!

After all, they're trying to do it to you...

They started it, you were minding your own business, peacefully ambling along...

Anything is a weapon - use it, including the body of one of the attackers in between yourself and them.

It's a horror story, one we hopefully will never experience, God willing, but I'd trade 1000 of them for one of us.

You have a duty to supply a parent for your children and spouse for your SO, a child for your parents and a friend for your friends. Fight like the devil himself is after you - he is!

 

[Fred Fuller]

It's a good idea to train in weapon retention techniques in the event of such encounters, which can happen "when your awareness fails" as Southnarc puts it. IMHO it's also a good idea to have something useful available to your support side hand also, in case your shooting hand gets otherwise engaged during the struggle.

What that useful tool might be will vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, from person to person. But IMHO you are limiting yourself in potentially dangerous fashion if you keep everything on one side and at one level. Consider carrying various tools at various levels (high line= neck or armpits, midline= waistband or pockets, low line= ankles) as well as on both sides.

You don't have to festoon yourself with weapons like a wallcrawling mall minja, but redistributing your current everyday carry load might be worth considering. And you might discover a hole that needs to be filled in your toolkit- or your training- in the process.

lpl/nc