How to stand up to a large group of attackers...

[esquare]

http://www.borderlandbeat.com/2010/11/mexican-marines-reconstruct-death-of.html

From a S&T perspective, I would like to cover what this man did well, what he didn't and what we can learn. I know this is a very 'out there' scenario for most of us in the US, but anyone with a farm or a large parcel of land could face a threat of multiple armed attackers. I know I would prepare for this if I had land in the border states or really anywhere remote. You could really get into it anywhere if a meth gang wanted to set up shop on your land, etc.

I think he did well at preparation with what he had. However, I'm thinking that the outcome could have been different if he had 1-2 neighbors or friends that would have stood beside him.

Also, I think if he knew an attack was coming, would he have been better setting up outside the house, especially during the night where he could have had an advantage.

Third, what preparations could he have taken to the property to help repel an attack? I'm thinking that a sturdy wall around the house (with say, 80-100ft between wall and house) would have helped. It at least gives some time to prepare and also makes a funnel that the attackers have to go through.

Fourth, for all the craziness about body armor, this time is actually makes sense.

And last, coming around to my first thought, I think communication and closeness and preparation with neighbors could have played a major roll in this. If he had a few neighbors in which they decided to stick together in this sort of event, they could have mounted a pretty amazing resistance to the attackers.

I wonder what lessons we could glean from those who settled the West and faced similar types of dangers.

 

[The Bushmaster]

If you read the artical fully the rancher sent all of his ranch hands way and intended to fight alone.

I'm not sure that "monday morning quarterback" analysis of a situation of this nature in a country where you probably don't have other neighbors that wish to die protecting your property from drug cartels is something you , or anyone else, should be doing. Instead we should be aplauding this man...

You were not there!!

 

[Skribs]

Not to sound crass, but he's 77. If he didn't go in a gunfight, he was probably going to go soon. In that situation, he might have figured that he would rather go like this than by getting old, and didn't want to drag his neighbors into it. Keep in mind also that he had only a day's warning that this would occur. I don't expect to be facing 6+ soldiers armed with assault weaponry and explosives. At home, I expect 1-3, armed with maybe pistols/shotguns. At the worst, 3-4 armed with machine pistols.

I think when you're planning for these things, you have to have an acceptable risk. Okay, no it's not acceptable for 10 people wearing head-to-toe body armor, armed with street sweepers, LMGs, and a box of grenades between them to take over my house, but the "acceptable risk" means there is a very low chance of that happening. I'm not saying it won't happen, but I am saying that I doubt a full squad is going to attack my house, and I doubt anyone attacking my house would be wearing armor or as heavily armed as the media says you are if you carry a pocket knife.

That is, of course, unless I get into a civil unrest situation, or if I anger the mob and kill several hitmen they send after me, but in those cases I probably wouldn't stay in my house anyway.

 

[esquare]

If you read the artical fully the rancher sent all of his ranch hands way and intended to fight alone.

I'm not sure that "monday morning quarterback" analysis of a situation of this nature in a country where you probably don't have other neighbors that wish to die protecting your property from drug cartels.

You were not there!!

I did read the article fully. There is a difference between employees and fellow ranchers. Your neighbors may be more willing to help defend the area because they know they are next.

I'm not trying to monday morning quarterback here - I'm trying to have a discussion about how to prepare for situations like this. This type of thing can and does happen in the US too.

 

[Oyeboten]

I wondered if he had any Sons and Grandchildren also.


A large enough show of force, and, he might have prevailed or disappointed/rebuffed the attackers.

 

[mg.mikael]

A large enough show of force, and, he might have prevailed or disappointed/rebuffed the attackers.

Unlikely, it seems he (the 77 year old) pist off the wrong people, as in cartel members. Even if he had fought them off this time, they certainly would have been back to finish him off sooner or later. It's inevitable that he would have been killed.

I wonder what lessons we could glean from those who settled the West and faced similar types of dangers.

Lesson.....don't get involved with Mexican crime syndicates, drug cartels, or any other illicit activity. Then you should be okay from at least this situation.

 

[Sky]

Ranchers being moved off there land is happening with more frequency; he is just one of the very few who stood his ground because he was armed.

There is an advantage to being old. You have lived your life and can make a stand for what you believe in (maybe) easier than a younger person. Don't take that wrong old guys don't usually wanna die either; I suppose the difference is mainly emotion. When I was young I might get pissed and do something like that without regards to the consequences. Young bold and I will prevail sorta thing.

When you are old you might be pissed but it is more of a accepted consequence of your actions. Doubt he thought he would survive but wanted to make his death count. Salute.

I have never believed a house or a cave was a good defensive position against a determined force.

Depending on Mosquitoes and outside dug in position ( or 2 or 3 ) might have afforded a better opportunity to pop more of the bad guys but you have to wonder if he was sure they would come back as they said they would. A couple of nights waiting outside would not have been easy.

I actually know of a farmer/rancher who had to leave his place. He had an old illegal single shot 20 gauge shot gun; he is 68 and still chases after future x-wives.

I would personally like to see the population of Mexico be armed at least to the extent we are here. The predator cartels have a free pass to do whatever they want so arm the sheep and see what happens to the wolf.

 

[esquare]

Lesson.....don't get involved with Mexican crime syndicates, drug cartels, or any other illicit activity. Then you should be okay from at least this situation.

This is the same type of advice given to college women - don't go out at night, don't go running by yourself, don't go to bars, don't try to pick up a stalker. All good advice, but you can still do everything right and wind up in a fight. Mexican cartels, just like drug gangs and producers here in the US, don't just leave well enough alone.

 

[blitzen]

In a situation like this, I don't think I'd be were they thought I'd be. But I would be in range. Given a direct threat, in the same place, with no other choice, I'd have been very proactive.(they'd be the ones looking over there shoulder)

 

[Sam1911]

From a S&T perspective, I would like to cover what this man did well, what he didn't and what we can learn.

The answers really depend on your goals. Most of the time here in S&T our goal is to survive and protect our loved ones. If that was the goal, then Senor Garza failed to do the only thing that could have achieved that goal for him in his location/situation: leave. Overwhelming odds are overwhelming odds. (Doesn't really seem like this was his goal...)

If you live in a place where you have the backing of strong and honest law-enforcement, you may be able to work with them to resist the threat, or to evict and arrest those who would strong-arm you out of your property. If you live in Mexico, you either pay someone protection money, hire a paramilitary group to defend your property, or you leave.

That's if your goal is survival. As others said, kill one, they'll be back tomorrow with two. Kill two, they'll be back next week with four. This isn't a fight that one man can win, and probably not a fight that a small band of neighbors could win. The kind of money involved in the drug trade simply stacks the odds far too high against the honest land owners. They can always hire more killers and always supply better guns, ammo, and equipment. If he had survived, they could have sent one guy with a basic hunting rifle to pick him off from 300 yds. the next time he walked out his back door. If someone like that wants you dead at whatever cost, it will simply happen. (Unless you have the money/power to defend and counter-attack at the level your enemy is playing.)

Now, if your goal is to make a dying statement of resistance to the tyrrany of evil men, and by your passing you do not cause further harm to those who love you and rely on you, then he did very admirably. Used cover/concealment obviously. Was fairly proficient with his weapons. Used the defender's advantage to good purpose. Might have delayed his demise for a day or two or maybe a week, if he'd had some body armor and perhaps a suicidal friend who was willing to give the last full measure for his ranch.

Don't know if his statement will be "worth" anything in the long run -- that depends on his enemy's tenacity, his local authorities' corruption, and his family's actions going forward.

Is killing as many of them as possible before they kill you a worthy premise for an S&T discussion?

 

[SSN Vet]

The real discussion is not one of a tactical nature, but rather is strategic.

Mexico needs to impose martial law and to fight the narcos with a vengence.

The U.S. needs to seal the border and deal with those that are on this side.

The stakes are very high for both nations.

 

[Sam1911]

The real discussion is not one of a tactical nature, but rather is strategic. ... Mexico needs to impose martial law and to fight the narcos with a vengence. ...

And this is one of the problems in discussing an event like this. The broader social, criminal, political, and international relations issues are outside the scope of THR in general and WAY outside the scope of S&T more specifically.

 

[Sky]

Sam remember Tet? Many believe that was a turning point yet we kicked some serious behind! Will it be a rally point for the Mexicans? Lets not hold our breath!

I just got off the phone to Mexico.

The people I talked to said they knew of the assault and killing. But to them it was a long way from their house and what can they do; they are unarmed.

If your police are runners and lookouts for the cartels; if your military takes protection money from the Cartels and can be hired to go after a rival; if you are defenseless then why is it a surprise to anyone that this stuff is going on.

Our rancher went out in a blaze of glory ( yes he is dead not very pretty) and I imagine he knew his actions would lead to his own death.

He was prepared to die and knowing what they do to prisoners he had already made up his mind that his ranch and arms would indeed be from his cold dead hands. Again I say "Salute" and 21 steps.

 

[Kleanbore]

Is killing as many of them as possible before they kill you a worthy premise for an S&T discussion?

No.

The broader social, criminal, political, and international relations issues are outside the scope of THR in general and WAY outside the scope of S&T more specifically.

Yes.