Swarming attacks?

[LightningJoe]

A gun is the ideal weapon for breaking up a swarm. It is LOUD and at night will make a bright flash. People can receive mortal wounds from knives and not know it, not even know their opponent has a knife. They find blood on themselves and wonder where it came from. The gun will command instant attention and will produce instant, viceral fear. Your attackers will be frightened and demoralized, even those who are not injured. They attacked you in a mob because this made them brave. The discharge of a gun will take that away.

 

[brownie0486]

sacp81170a,

I run my own gun forum here:

http://www.threatfocused.com/forums/index.php

reviews from previous students are here:

http://www.threatfocused.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=19

I'll be back in Knoxville, Tenn. next spring [ 08 ], maybe sooner. Thats about as close as I get to AR presently.

You can email me at arizonaqkr "at" yahoo dot com whenever you have questions about the course material presented.

Brownie

 

[mpmarty]

Nobody should lightly gloss over or ignore the advice of Lee Lapin on having a weapon available for either hand. I carry my PT145 strong side and a 4" automatic knife in my left rear pocket, clipped where I can bring it into action fast. Automatic knives (aka switchblades) are perfectly legal here.

 

[Leanwolf]

I do my best to stay out of areas where I might be the victim of being attacked by multiple assailants.

I try to be aware of what is around me.

But, if perchance a bunch of P.O.S. thugs did come at me, given that I'm older and haven't the faintest intention of trying to "duke it out" with a bunch of young, worthless cretins then I'd immediately call on my old and dear friends, Col. Colt and his Nine Little Sisters, for assistance.

L.W.

 

[Geno]

The fact of "swarm" attacks is precisely the reason that I left the ATA to join the USTA. The USTA uses a "swarm" attack format for defensive sparring (testings) for Black Belts advancement tests.

 

[trueblue1776]

A weapon for each hand? How is life in the Central African Republic these days?

 

[brownie0486]

Nobody should lightly gloss over or ignore the advice of Lee Lapin on having a weapon available for either hand. I carry my PT145 strong side and a 4" automatic knife in my left rear pocket, clipped where I can bring it into action fast. Automatic knives (aka switchblades) are perfectly legal here.

How many hours of defensive knife training do you have to use that blade? Just having a knife available is not going to do much good when you are surrounded by a "swarm" of them if you don't have some pretty high level training to go with that weapon platform.

No different than those who carry a gun without some advanced skills in that platform, and in fact the knife is a "higher" artform in a weapons platform to learn and use with any luck of surviving against multiples.

The above is proven regularly in the knife defense skills during FoF with the blades. It takes some serious training with blades to be proficient enoough to deal with two, let alone a "swarm" of BG's

You may well have some high level training in bladecraft, but then again, most reading this thread and scouring the internet forums do not. Suggesting a second weapon [ especially a blade ] on the off side somehow will help you win the battle [ any battle where SD is concerned ] is misleading to those who do not fully understand the nuances of blade work and it's intricacies in efficient use thereof [ which you'd better fully understand or that knife might get jammed where the sun don't shine PDQ by one or more of the swarm-ers.

Brownie

 

[obxned]

I don't think any of the swarm wants to continue after the shooting begins. Even stupid people will remember a pressing engagement elsewhere when several of their 'friends' are bleeding all over the ground.

 

[Geno]

I take issue with the assumption that the guy running off at the mouth is the leader, and is the toughest.

What have seen in my own research, in many readings on groups, and in my unfortunate life-experiences, is that many "groups" are really a collective of sub-groups. The "group" does have a leader, and it has sub-leaders...the leader of each sub-group. The runner-up in power, the #2 leader" is usually the one who boasts for the head cheese. The group leader seldom brags on himself! Take out the mouthy one, and you'll likely still tangle with the leader. By the time you take out the top two, you won't need tangle with more. This assumes no weapons. If weapons are drawn, you're on your own.

 

[meef]

Best thing to do is to take out the biggest, baddest one first. Eyes, throat and joints - take 'em all. No fair fight, no rules, maim the cretin so horribly the others are shocked into retreat.

Well now, that sounds really handy.

Unless the biggest, baddest one just happens to be big and bad enough that he make belt hangers out of your eyes, throat and joints. And proceeds to maim you so horribly that the others are shocked into disbelief.

I mean, it all sounds so easy.

Just gotta get the big bad guy to cooperate, that's all.

Unfortunately for me, I ain't a Bruce Lee clone.

 

[Geno]

Add to the mix, the effects of group-think, drugs and / or booze and you have a whole unpredictable dynamic.

 

[Gary Frost]

Happened to me in Barrenquilla, Colombia, just down the street from my hotel. A group of kids, 10 to about 14 y/o rushed me on the sidewalk. I would try to duck between parked cars to reduce the numbers of attackers surrounding me. Worked ok as I fought my way back to the hotel. What ended the whole thing was the security guard that was always on the front door,(meanest looking human being I ever saw) came running down the street, m16 still slung. He had out the cutest little pistol grip, 10 in bbl 12 ga he usually had on his belt. He shot into the croud 3 times with that and they dispersed howling, yelling and screaming.

Of course all situations are different, but I think the ability to move about is important, also the ability to use more force than the attackers is most important, and the majority of witnesses will be just that, witnesses.

 

[Snapping Twig]

What can I say Meef? I realize that most aren't trained, but realize that the battle is won or lost long before the first strike. If one rolls over and allows fear to reduce them to inaction, all is lost.

Gangs are made of cowards and as such, they don't want to get hurt let alone maimed for their troubles. They pick targets based on ease. You have a slight advantage in that they believe you are an easy mark, so you can generally slam the first one pretty good since they underestimate you from the beginning. All I'm saying is this...

I'm trained, this should be obvious, but anyone can stand up - I suggest you do if you're in such a situation. I further suggest you throw the fair fight rule book out the window and gouge their eyes out, crush their throats or something else medieval, after all, to do nothing is to die. The things I suggest do not take Bruce Lee or a strong body. Eyes - easy, in fact, play with a 2 year old and get your face close to them. They'll most likely poke you in the eye at some point and you'll be "out of the fight". This from a 2 year old that has no strength. Same for the throat, the temple, any joint, etc.

When you've got nothing to lose, go for it!

 

[jeepmor]

In my Kenpo karate training, every swing or kick is perried (blocked or deflected) and then a return blow is issued. In this case, the return blows need to be exceptionally prejudice. This is not a bar fight where the two fighters often lick their wounds together over a beer afterwards, this is for keeps. Breaking bones pretty much insures said cretin will not return back to the swarm. I know it's cliche, but think Steven Segall type fighting, he hurts every attacker enough that they either can't fight, or won't be returning to the fight.

I'm getting to old to use all that karate stuff, or lazy, take your pick. I'd pull a gun and start shooting.

Like the one of those old westerns where the guy was surrounded by 10 guys with only a six shooter. One cretin says, "you only have 6 bullets and there's 10 of us here." The good guy then states, "which 6 of you want to die?" The swarm quickly backed off.

 

[Browning]

In The UK There's Something Called Happy Slapping Where A Groups Attacks & Films it.

"Happy Slapping" in the UK.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happy_slapping

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article534788.ece

http://video.aol.com/video-detail/id/280656055

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Then there's just the regular old and time honored gang attack with or without the benefit of a portable video camera or video cell phone to record the whole thing.I guess most of these would be the American version of Happy Slapping.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAnIU--1m_o

http://www.shockabilly.com/videos/242_Lynch_Mob_Beats_the_****_Out_this_Snitch_and_****_Up_Dudes_Car%21.php

http://www.comegetyousome.com/viewvid.php?id=539

http://www.kickhit.com/Gallery/view/Street-Fights/Ghetto-Fight-in-front-of-shops

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News reports of men being attacked and severely beaten by gangs.

Sounds like swarming to me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x91h5hw1eFQ

http://www.mlive.com/news/kzgazette/index.ssf?/base/news-24/1181920988290000.xml&coll=7

 

[dstorm1911]

multiple tools hmmmm I generally carry A Taurus PT145 Milpro or a 5" XD .40 or a 1911 strong side behind the hip, sometimes its concealed under an unbottoned cotton shirt.... sometimes its not (Arizona) left side is a Gerber multitool in a 9mm double stack mag pouch (clip on and perfect case for a gerber BTW) ever been jabbed by a gerber? use it as a fist block the pliers snap out and lock (single handed no twisting or flipping etc.. like other muti-tools) the tips of the pliers are very effective for breaking a car window in emergency as well as a scull, continueing towards my back next to the gerber is another mag pouch with a spare mag next to that inside my waistband is a Belt clipped KEL-TEC P3AT On some occasions there might be a second belt cliped P3AT clipped either to an inside jacket pocket or to the top of a boot (wear cowboy boots exclusivly) etc...

great lil gun the P3AT can actually have one in each palm and totally concealed makes for a nice accent to standard force on force tactics jab/BOOM --- push/BOOM ---- parie/BOOM the lil .380 mouseguns are much maligned but VERY effective for disuading a crowd ......... also very helpful if the support hand can not only be used to sheild the main gun but can cover targets to your immediate right rather than attempting to rotate your body to the right which is just asking to be disarmed instead fire the mouse gun while the .45 deals with frontal and left attacks (assuming right handed) both guns can be used for targets behind you.....

hint; practice shooting the lil mouse gun with middle finger rather than index finger, improves your grip on the gun plus ya lay your index finger along the slide for two functions one instictive pointability #2 prevents outa battery condition while jabbing prior to BOOMing

While talking bout an auto being put outa battery due to contact........ uhhh if your on the recieveing end ya might want to make sure that Auto isn't equiped with a full leangth solid guide rod...... all of mine are including the lil KTs as are most every modern Semi Auto handgun so I'll take the 10 shots and mag fast reload over 5-6 shots and trying to operate a speed loader while be piled on by a crowd ANY day of the week....... those 5 (snub nosed) to 6 shots are gonna go by very very fast now ya got an ineffectual club Also ya do realize its far easier to disable that revolver right? All ya gotta do is grab the cyl. it can't rotate the hammer cannot come back its totally locked up now ya give it a lil twist forcing the owners wrist into a lock........ we trained quite a bit on this in the 80s the autoloader on the other hand with one in the tube...... it'll still go BOOM and the violent action of the slide will rip the guys hand loose from the gun everytime...... Nope for a swarming attack ya deffinetly want a compatc hard to grasp high capacity Autoloader a revolver only if ya absolutally got no other option

 

[strambo]

"Tools" aren't going to solve this problem. Injuring one and moving so his body is tossed into the next guy (as you are moving as well, frustrating the others) is the best way. What you do needs to be effective (i.e. it causes debilitating injury) and your movement needs to be constant to frustrate the others until it's their turn to get injured.

Yeah, you'll get hit...and what if they injure you? What if they are better than you? Don't worry about it, if that's the case it will all get solved for you. Just focus on injuring them and staying in motion until it's over (one way or another).

If you do have some "tool" (knife, club or gun), then access it at some point while in motion. I just wouldn't suggest it be your 1st move. If you are getting swarmed, your 1st movement needs to do something along the lines of what Snapping Twig was talking about (injury), as you penetrate deep and rotate fully aroung him putting the others on one side of you. Maybe move #2 is drawing and shooting over the crippled body of BG#1 with ruptured testes and a busted ankle.

 

[Hugo]

Gary Frost what were you doing in Columbia?!??? What year was it? What happened with you and the security guard after that? Hope you gave him a big tip!

 

[Sharps-shooter]

I almost got attacked by multiple assailants once, but I let them know my intention was to kill one of them in the process, with a broken bottle (only thing I had handy except my barlow knife, and it had a bit longer of a reach). Nobody decided to be that first guy to initiate the atack, but if they had, I was going to cut him badly and try to make a break for it.

 

[Gary Frost]

Hugo, about 7 or 8 yrs ago I got a contract to supply several hospitals in several towns x-ray equipment. I was required to go install it as well. In Barrenquilla I always stayed in the same hotel. At night I would go find something I could stand to eat. I always brought the guard at the door a cold bottle of water or a coke hoping he would remember me if he had to wse any of his weapons and give the gringo time to duck. Guess it worked.

 

[LightningJoe]

My stepdaughter was accosted by about 20 boys at a high school football game. She walked up to the boy who was most directly blocking her path, picked him up, and set him aside. Then, she walked on.


Then, I think she and her friends went and hid in the ladies' room.

 

[2RCO]

I was once "swarmed" in college by 7 or 8 members of another fraternity. I was alone on the porch of my house with only a bottle of beer. I broke it on the house and said something to the effect of bring it &(**(*! Turned out nobody wanted cut so I was let be rather quickly. It was all very instinctive to this day I can claim a beer bottle saved my life! In hindsight I don't now whether this was very stupid or a wise decision--it worked but I could have ended up dead.