Switching Eyes Moves Groups

[DMW1116]

By quite a bit in my estimation. The groups were shot at 5 yards with my Browning Buckmark copy air pistol. The group on the left was done with my right hand and right eye. The group at the dot was done with my left hand and left eye. I’m left handed and left eye dominant so it’s zeroed for that. Is it normal to have groups move that far from switching hands and eyes?

 

[JohnKSa]

That's why you either shoot with your dominant eye or, if you want to shoot with your weak eye, you have to close your dominant eye. Those groups are actually closer together than I would have expected.

 

[DMW1116]

So it’s not just me? That explains why all my iron sights shoot right when I first get them. I’ve adjusted my Shield’s sights 3 times.

 

[JohnKSa]

If you're shooting consistently with one eye or the other, your groups should be consistent. When you switch back and forth, you need to close your dominant eye if you're not shooting on your dominant side.

But I don't think that accounts for why your guns typically shoot to the right when you first get them out of the box. That sounds more like a trigger technique issue.

 

[drk1]

I'm not quite sure that I understand. Were you aiming at the same spot on the target? Were you closing your dominant eye or using a patch to close off your dominant eye? Did you 1) shoot the group on the left with your left hand and left eye, and then 2) aiming at the same spot, shoot the group on the right with your right hand and right eye? If that is what happened, it would appear that when you shot that second group - the one on the right - you only thought that you were using the same side hand and eye. It's not possible for the point of impact to change that much when you simply switch sides. It is extremely difficult for most people, who are cross eye dominant, to shoot with their weak hand and keep the opposite dominant eye open. Yes, "experts" willl try to teach you to keep both eyes open, but it is extremely difficult for the weak eye to overide the dominant eye. Most of us have to resort to a patch or special glasses to close off the image that dominant eye sees. Try again with a patch over the dominant eye when you shoot with the weak hand and let us know what happens.

 

[WrongHanded]

So it’s not just me? That explains why all my iron sights shoot right when I first get them. I’ve adjusted my Shield’s sights 3 times.

You're left-handed and left eye dominant, and all your guns shoot right when you get them so you adjust the sights to "fix" that? But then when you shoot right-handed with your right eye, you hit inches left of the target at 5 yards but still have a nice small group?

Sounds like you're pushing your shots to the right when shooting lefty. Have someone else shoot the gun to confirm.

 

[Ethan Verity]

It doesn't matter which eye you use... the visual point of aim is exactly the same. You're pulling the shots differently from your right hand to your left hand.

 

[DMW1116]

So here’s the weird thing. This pistol seems to be the worst by far. It also has the worst trigger by a country mile. My M&P9 shoots center, my brothers P89 shot low and left until I figured out the stress ball someone put on it for a grip. My Shield shot right but is centered now with my carry ammo. I have the sights in my Blackhawk centered for 10 yards and other people shoot it and hit bullseyes.

 

[WrongHanded]

So here’s the weird thing. This pistol seems to be the worst by far. It also has the worst trigger by a country mile. My M&P9 shoots center, my brothers P89 shot low and left until I figured out the stress ball someone put on it for a grip. My Shield shot right but is centered now with my carry ammo. I have the sights in my Blackhawk centered for 10 yards and other people shoot it and hit bullseyes.

Different guns with different triggers. A short travel single action trigger like a Blackhawk's, lends itself to precision. Double action triggers and heavier striker fired triggers tend to produce a wider range of results from different shooters.

Actually, one of the ways I verify that my sights are on is to shoot a controlled slowfire group with my dominant hand, take a break, then shoot one with my non-dominant hand (using my dominant eye for both). They should impact in the same place if I'm not doing something funky.

 

[gwpercle]

It doesn't matter which eye you use... the visual point of aim is exactly the same. You're pulling the shots differently from your right hand to your left hand.

It does matter which eye you use . You have a "Dominant" eye that should be used for shooting .
Everyone's eyes are different , different shapes to the eyeballs and lenses ...no two people see exactly alike . Shooting with both eyes open may require a sight change , shooting with the non-dominant eye may require a sight change and my corrective prescription glasses will be different than yours ... it's in the eye's .
Changing your grip or changing the guns grips can move POA / POI slightly and to some degree and then here we have differances in each humans hand ! but a lot more is the differences in each humans eye's and the differences in your dominant and non-dominate (left & right) eyes ...this human eye business can get complicated .
I've been dealing with eye , retina and shooting problems for forty years or more now .
Gary

 

[EMC45]

That's why you either shoot with your dominant eye or, if you want to shoot with your weak eye, you have to close your dominant eye. Those groups are actually closer together than I would have expected.

And they’re both tight too

 

[DMW1116]

Is it coincidence that the groups are about the same distance apart as my eyes?

 

[DMW1116]

I did have to close my left eye to shoot with my right and I think I closed my right to shoot with my left.

 

[WrongHanded]

Is it coincidence that the groups are about the same distance apart as my eyes?

If you are aiming at the same orange dot, then yes.

 

[JohnKSa]

I did have to close my left eye to shoot with my right and I think I closed my right to shoot with my left.

If you are closing your other eye when you switch from one side to the other (i.e. close right eye to shoot left-handed, close left eye to shoot right-handed), it's not an eye issue.

It's pretty common to push shots a little away from the dominant hand, I think that's a better explanation for what's going on here.

 

[jmr40]

It doesn't matter which eye you use... the visual point of aim is exactly the same. You're pulling the shots differently from your right hand to your left hand.

It matters a lot. Take this test. Extend your arm fully, raise your thumb and use it like a front sight and point it at an object in the room with both eyes open. Close your left eye. Then open the left eye and close the right eye If the thumb remains in the same spot with the left eye closed, you're right eye dominate. If it moves when the right eye is closed, you are left eye dominant.

The same thing happens when shooting; your group will be several inches different if you're using the non-dominate eye. The groups the OP shot are typical when this happens.

This is often less of an issue with handguns IF you are using a 2-hand hold and the gun is in the middle. But it is still an issue. But it sounds like OP was firing one handed with the gun directly in line with one eye or the other depending on which hand he was holding the gun in.

With rifles or shotguns that are held against the shoulder and sighted primarily with the eye on the same side the gun is shouldered eye dominance is more important. If you're shooting on the side of your dominate eye it is easy enough to shoot with both eyes open. But if shooting from the non-dominate side you pretty much have to close the dominate eye.

If caught at an early age it is best to learn how to shoot from the side of the dominate eye. Especially with shotguns. You really need to be shooting them with both eyes open to hit moving targets.

 

[Ethan Verity]

It doesn't matter which eye you use... the visual point of aim is exactly the same. You're pulling the shots differently from your right hand to your left hand.

It does matter which eye you use . You have a "Dominant" eye that should be used for shooting .
Everyone's eyes are different , different shapes to the eyeballs and lenses ...no two people see exactly alike . Shooting with both eyes open may require a sight change , shooting with the non-dominant eye may require a sight change and my corrective prescription glasses will be different than yours ... it's in the eye's .
Changing your grip or changing the guns grips can move POA / POI slightly and to some degree and then here we have differances in each humans hand ! but a lot more is the differences in each humans eye's and the differences in your dominant and non-dominate (left & right) eyes ...this human eye business can get complicated .
I've been dealing with eye , retina and shooting problems for forty years or more now .
Gary

It matters a lot. Take this test. Extend your arm fully, raise your thumb and use it like a front sight and point it at an object in the room with both eyes open. Close your left eye. Then open the left eye and close the right eye If the thumb remains in the same spot with the left eye closed, you're right eye dominate. If it moves when the right eye is closed, you are left eye dominant.

The same thing happens when shooting; your group will be several inches different if you're using the non-dominate eye. The groups the OP shot are typical when this happens.

This is often less of an issue with handguns IF you are using a 2-hand hold and the gun is in the middle. But it is still an issue. But it sounds like OP was firing one handed with the gun directly in line with one eye or the other depending on which hand he was holding the gun in.

With rifles or shotguns that are held against the shoulder and sighted primarily with the eye on the same side the gun is shouldered eye dominance is more important. If you're shooting on the side of your dominate eye it is easy enough to shoot with both eyes open. But if shooting from the non-dominate side you pretty much have to close the dominate eye.

If caught at an early age it is best to learn how to shoot from the side of the dominate eye. Especially with shotguns. You really need to be shooting them with both eyes open to hit moving targets.

I think you're taking my post out of context, I'm aware that there is a dominate eye, and that the body will intuitively align the sights with this eye. But, what I was saying is so long as you have proper sight alignment, it doesn't matter if you are seeing that proper sight alignment with your right eye, or your left eye... that is where the bullet should go. Sight alignment is a straight line of light... which eye is viewing that line is irrelevant. The bullets grouping somewhere else is caused by other variables, not which eye is being used.

 

[DMW1116]

I was firing these one handed, matching the eye being used. The pistol is right handed, so it’s nice to have the safety right at my thumb sometimes. It automatically comes on every time the gun is loaded.

 

[Walkalong]

I was firing these one handed, matching the eye being used.

So it could be a hand difference issue as well, how you hold the gun and control recoil.

 

[DMW1116]

That’s true. It could be a grip difference. Recoil is sort of off, as this was an air pistol. It still has piston recoil but not like a 9 or even 22.

 

[DR505]

I used to practice dominant eye/hand and opposite eye/hand all the time. Every handgun I used stacked the shots at the same place irrespective of eye/hand. I am one of those few that have difficulty closing one eye independently of the other, so I simply override the dominance of my right eye and concentrate on the left. Using scopes I even keep both eyes open.

I would bet, as already suggested, it is grip/trigger press.

 

[bigpower491]

I solved alot of my grouping issues shooting handguns by shooting both eyes open. I realized then how important my grip and trigger techniques were in getting consistent groups. All the sight adjustments in the world werent making much of a difference. From that point on, it's been practice, practice, practice.
I say I'm a heck of alot better now since I started doing that

 

[sgt127]

I’m right handed and, apparently ambi eyeballed. I’ve worn contacts my whole life. If my (usual) right eye gets blurry from the wind, tearing up, I just use my left eye. Makes no difference to POA at all. And, I don’t have to close either eye. My brain just switches eyes, and, I reacquire the front sight with the other eye.

The non aiming eye just kinda chills out and actually de focuses a little.

Or, I got dropped as a baby.

 

[balin]

I have shot long guns with my right eye and right handed all my life. And use my left hand and eye for most of my handguns shooting. The stigmatism in my 2 eyes are not the same . My left eye sees things more to the right then things really are. I used to think I was pulling my shots to the right due to my lefthanded shooting but couldn't over come that till I figured it was due to the stigmatism.

 

[DR505]

I’m right handed and, apparently ambi eyeballed. I’ve worn contacts my whole life. If my (usual) right eye gets blurry from the wind, tearing up, I just use my left eye. Makes no difference to POA at all. And, I don’t have to close either eye. My brain just switches eyes, and, I reacquire the front sight with the other eye.

The non aiming eye just kinda chills out and actually de focuses a little.

Or, I got dropped as a baby.

You described it much better than “eye” did. Ambidextrous vision.

Bad puns - that’s how eye roll.