Synagogue bans carry

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it just dawned on me that my post may be taken by some as offensive. i apologize to any who out of respect for the sacred name of God, hyphenate, or never go with the christian translation of the tetragrammaton. please forgive me.

i'm sorry also, this thread is taking a significant drift due to my input. clubsoda, i'll move my further discussion to PM if thats all right with you.

now back to your regular programming.
 
It would seem to me, that in this day and time, that all of us, no matter what our religon, should be dutifully aware of the importance of protecting our places of worship.

Whether we are Christians or Jewish or Muslim or any other Faith we could become the next target of terrorism. It's only a matter of time until someone get's tired of the school shoot-em-ups and decides that a Holy Place would get as much or more TV coverage.

After all it's not as if attacking people just because they have a different Faith is a new concept or anything.

We must all be Ever Vigilant and Fight the Good Fight.


As for me I wish nothing but Peace and Prosperity for all of my fellow THRers in this New Year.


ps I am a Christian, but concealed means concealed. I carry in church, just as I carry anywhere else, just in case.
 
There's a lot more Jews that "get it" than many think although there were millions who didn't really "get it" until they were actually clawing away the concrete of the gas chamber walls. Of course, many don't "get it" and they're an embarrassment, really, but it's a free country where you're 100% free to be a moron and total disgrace.
 
I would say that Mpayne is doing the right thing.

I'm not Jewish.....so I've learned something from this thread. I hope the moderators keep it open. So please....everyone keep it civil as is presently being done.

Given the history of the Jewish people....I never understood why it seemed so many Jews were anti gun. If I were Jewish,I would want to be armed to the teeth. Well OK........I want to anyway. :D

For "never again" to work there must be a means for armed resistance.
And......let's not forget.....the final solution came from a government that was put in place by a guy who got into government as an elected official.

Matthew......keep fighting the good fight.
 
Being a Jew, I'll try to answer some of the questions. Now keep in mind I don't speak for all Jews world wide, just the friends and family I have.

Actually nobody speaks for Jews worldwide; we don't have a central leader like The Pope.

As far as typing the word G-d: Yes, if you're an observant Jew, you don't type out the whole word. It's out of respect.

Guns in Synagogues: I lived in Skokie IL. when the American nazi party was going to hold a march. Our Rabbi asked that we do nothing and leave our guns at home. We didn't.

As an observant Jew, we don't carry anything on our Sabbath (Friday at Sundown until Saturday at sundown). Keys, wallet, guns, nothing.


There are MANY forms of Judaism. Some are stricter than others, some are less strict.

As for Jews not arming themselves, it's an American thing. Check out Israel sometime.

On a side note, why is everyone so worried about this thread being closed?
 
On a side note, why is everyone so worried about this thread being closed?

Because religious threads tend to have a very short lifespan. Folks tend to be very set in their beliefs and the threads go downhill fast.
 
2. Their sysnagogue, church, mosque, whatever...their rules...why make a fuss over the request of a clergyman/congregatiojn..

PS...if I decide no guns in my house, do you have a right to bring one in?

Wildyour"rights"endatsomeoneelsesdoorAlaska

At the risk of repeating repeating repeating myself...

Why make a "fuss"? Hundreds of my people choose to disarm themselves in total breach of common sense and religious duty, and sending a polite letter is "making a fuss"?

No. Some valid, constructive advice is all. I am not demanding the right to disobey their silly rule; I'll rarely, if ever, be back there.

I just hate to see Jews acting like sheep. It strikes a vivid and unpleasant chord in my memory.
 
Should ANYONE really have the right to demand that you wave your very right to life as a condition of working, shopping, eating, praying in their establishment?

Absolutely...all they are asking you to do is leave your deadly weapons outside....they are not hanging you or killing you..I dont equate not being able to carry a gun as waiving my right to life.

Of course, many don't "get it" and they're an embarrassment, really, but it's a free country where you're 100% free to be a moron and total disgrace.

OK so since I agree with the synsagogue here, Im a moron and a disgrace.? Nice High Road....

As an observant Jew, we don't carry anything on our Sabbath (Friday at Sundown until Saturday at sundown). Keys, wallet, guns, nothing.

Gee according to some then, your religouds beliefs make you a sheeple....


WildistandbymyearlierpointsAlaska
 
In Jewish religious law, maintaining life is the highest imperative.

For instance, people whose health would be harmed by fasting on the High Holy Days are required not to fast.

Similarly, as SMLE's link illustrates, carrying a gun in defense of life is not just permitted -- it's required.

I don't want this to turn into a religious war; everyone has their own beliefs, as it should be.

My point is that the very people who, if they had any sense at all, would encourage responsible gun ownership, do just the opposite.

And that's just sad.
 
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Real, actual Jewish law states that if an intruder enters your home and you're capable of doing something about it and you don't that you are just as guilty as the criminal. Kinda makes me proud to be a Jew. Loretta Weinberg and her ilk kinda don't. OK, there's my well-balanced "high-road".
 
Absolutely...all they are asking you to do is leave your deadly weapons outside....they are not hanging you or killing you..I dont equate not being able to carry a gun as waiving my right to life.

No, they're not hanging you or killing you themselves, they're holding you down so someone else can kill you. There is a lady in Texas who was having dinner at a Luby's with her parents. She left her deadly weapon in her car and got to watch her parents die for the sake of the idiotic principles of somebody with taxpayer funded police protection. I doubt she'd agree with your sentiments. Neither do I. They ARE demanding you waive your right to life! It's just that simple.
I hope you're never in a similar situation. If you are, I hope I'm around to help.
 
No, they're not hanging you or killing you themselves, they're holding you down so someone else can kill you.

Using that logic, I guess we should carry Stingers with us, defend against hijacked airplanes...

WildwhatkindofsocietydoyouwannaliveinAlaska
 
WildAlaska,

I can understand wanting to play devil's advocate, but please stop it. You are degrading an otherwise worthwhile thread.

This is not a personal attack, but I would like this thread to continue. Civilly.
 
Co-incidentally, I have just viewed, with a friend who I had recently persuaded to buy his first handgun, my copy of INNOCENTS BETRAYED, the anti gun-control film by JPFO.

Then I find this thread.


For the first 2/3 of my life, I, too was a left-liberal and anti-gun.


Thank G-d I woke up.


Like anyone else on this forum, I run the risk of harm from the usual array of perps coddled by our enlightened society..

But my main reason for having guns is because of my awareness of the 2000 year history of anti-semitism.


Anti-gun Jews are that way, it seems to me, because they are deeply conditoned by the millienia-long persecutions and killing Jews suffered, usually helplessly, living as strangers in strange lands.

I think the idea is, since they were never allowed to own arms for self-protection, that when the "natives" again go on the rampage, they will at least not have firearms to kill Jews with.

If you put yourself in their place, this seems understandable.


Those who know Jewish history know that never before have Jews been as accepted and as well-treated as they are in the US. That is not to say there is no anti-semitism here, because there is. But for various reasons, Jew hatred never gained a foothold here as it does, periodically, in other places. So far, anyway.

So in those other places, anti-semitism raged periodically and Jews (usually) were forbidden arms. Here in the States, anti-semitism has never been the kind of problem it was elsewhere -- and in most States, Jews, like anyone else CAN keep and bear arms.

If you combine their phobia against guns with their comfort about living in America, the result is a majority of Jews being anti-gun.


I am a naturalized American citizen and I passionately appreciate this country and what it stands for. But I love the lives of my self and my family, too.

And since anti-semitism has been a terrible problem in just about EVERY other country where Jews have lived -- I am not so foolish as to think it couldn't happen here.

Just pretend to be Muslim and attend your local mosque and listen to the sermons. There are now 1200 mosques in the US and around 1/3 are funded by Saudi Arabia. There is a powerful movement to marginalize whatever "moderate" Muslims there are and to have all Muslims identify with the fundamentalists and to hate America and the West and Israel and pointedly -- the Jews.

This movement is rapidly gaining hold.

So my reaon for having guns is 95% connected with my being Jewish.

And I believe that no American should EVER give up his guns, or at least access to them, no matter how the laws may be changed.




matis
 
You are degrading an otherwise worthwhile thread.

O really? Why becasue I dont think like you?

This is not a personal attack, but I would like this thread to continue. Civilly.

Then try responding to my point...civillly..if you are able...

By the way Matis, no one is trying to take away your guns, a congregation has asked ya not to carry one in shul...thats all....they arent laying down for the anti semites, just not taking their guns in a house of god....

WildrespectAlaska
 
Chalk me up as another Jew who believes in "never again."

I am a Christian, but my blood is Jewish. I've been to the synagogue plenty of times with my relatives. If I saw a sign like that I'd be seriously ticked off. Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, meine Juden???

David Kantrowitz
 
I recently visited your beautiful shul and noticed the signs on the doors: "Temple Israel Bans Guns In These Premises
Well, there is your problem right there, most "Temples" are Reform congregations. In Reform Judaism most members are Agnostic and Atheist (no attack here, there have been internal polls and the Reform movement has found that not only are most of their members Agnostic or Atheist, but most of their Rabbis don't believe in G-d either). Well, in religions like that, so-called "liberal" religions, they tend to mistake politics (liberal politics) for religion (also a problem with Unitarians and Quakers). Thus, I'd be more surprised if the Reform congregations didn't ban guns.

When did God's name become hyphenated?
As for this, it seems often times a practice becomes common and people forget why they do it.

It is true that we don't say G-d's names outright. Ad-n- becomes Hashem, E-oh-nu become Elokeinu, etc. Like someone else said though, G-d is only the English name/title. While most religious Jews use Hashem, Ha Kodosh Baruch Hu, and other Jewish names and phrases for G-d instead of the English word G-d, we do sometimes use the word G-d.

However, we do treat even the English word for G-d with respect. We do not write the name of G-d, nor most of the titles (at least that directly mean G-d, like G-d) not because we can't write it. It is because it is forbidden to destroy anything with G-d written on it. We usually write G-d as G-d and leave out the "o" so that someone who doesn't know better doesn't print out what you wrote and then later sin by throwing it away (thus destroying something with a name for G-d).
 
Hehe, I'm Jewish also. And I haven't counted but it seems like there are quite a number of Jewish gun owners participating on this forum. Could it be that Jews are not so anti-gun as we think?

Jews tend on average to be liberal Democrats and maybe that is where the anti-gun thing comes from. I have a sense though that at least some Jews are slowly moving away from the Democrats and towards the Republicans. Both my sister and I are Conservative Republicans and my parents are Democrats.

Bill
 
I grew up in a town with a large and active Jewish community. About 10 years ago, some men decided to put some small arms fire into the side of a synagogue. They did it at night, and only the rabbi was around, who wasn't hurt.

I hope are you successful at persuading the congregation that the issue here is personal and common defense, even if you ultimately do not influence their policy on guns. I think the scum who shot at my town's synagogue were lowlifes and wouldn't have tried the same thing during the day, but what if the rabbi had decided to step outside for some fresh air at the moment those thugs showed up, presenting himself as a "target of opportunity"? These are problems people thankfully don't have to think about often, but they need to be reminded the world can become very dangerous, very quickly sometimes.
 
.they arent laying down for the anti semites,

But they ARE Alaska, they ARE, that's the whole point of this thread! By leaving the guns in the cars, they are turning the Shul into a nice, fat, concentrated target full of helpless victims. And by doing so, are violating some pretty important Commandments in the process. Don't you get it? The BAD guys aren't going to respect the signs, they aren't going to respect the sanctity of the place itself. That is the greatest travesty of anti self-defense laws. The ONLY ones who obey them are the good guys, while the bad guys just go on their merry way killing, robbing, raping while carrying all the weapons they want. Anti self defense laws are predicated on the utterly false premise that some creep who has no qualms about committing MURDER is somehow going to be magically turned away by making a law, or rule, against having a gun.
 
Haven't we already sorta kinda discussed this?

Hmmmmm

Take the word synagogue and change it to MALL.

Haven't we had several threads saying that carry should be allowed in the Mall?
Haven't we had members who said that no mall ninja was gonna tell them where they could and could not carry?

So it suposed to be ok to let a religious ninja tell us the same thing?

Some of you will write letters to Applebee's and Hooter's if they post a sign saying they don't want weapons. You say you feel insulted that you can't carry there.

Why should a house of worship be any different?

Are you saying that if you're attacked by a flock of mutant ninja bears from outer space up you shouldn't be able to protect your borthers & sisters in Faith but you should be allowed to defend a jiggly waitress with a plate of barbeque wings? :rolleyes:
 
Anti self defense laws are predicated on the utterly false premise that some creep who has no qualms about committing MURDER is somehow going to be magically turned away by making a law, or rule, against having a gun.
Unfortunately they are even worse than that. The people writing these laws aren't so stupid as to think that these laws deter anything. They are disarming you and me simply so that they can have one more thing to charge the criminal with so they have a nice impressive list of charges, they'll plea bargain some of them away (including the weapons charge perhaps) so that they can get the guy on the "real" charge without going to the expense of a trial. Yup, that also means the only people who actually get in trouble for "illegally" carrying are people like you and me, the otherwise law abiding citizens, should we decide to carry the means to defend ourselves.


Of course, in this case we aren't talking about the state imposing a law disarming people, we are talking about the rights of synagogues, churches, businesses and other private property owners who open their property to the public to ban guns on their private property (though the law perhaps allows the free exercise of property rights to ban guns). Personally, I'm generally for property rights. I think the synagogue (and churches and businesses) should have the right to ban guns on their premises. When they do it should be accompanied by letters from people like us demanding that they change their tune. Don't go into business that do this if you can help it. If you belong to a church or synagogue that bans guns, find one that doesn't, switch your membership and let the leaders of both congregations know why you did this (of course this only works if you are in an area with more than one choice of congregations for your religion). This can be especially effective if you already are a fairly big contributor to your congregation and/or if you can convince others to do the same with you.
 
As an observant Jew, we don't carry anything on our Sabbath (Friday at Sundown until Saturday at sundown). Keys, wallet, guns, nothing.
Yes and no.

First, a few quick definitions so our non-Jewish and less observant Jewish friends can follow this:

-Eruv: There is a principle in Judaism that one cannot generally carry any item (even a house key) outside of your house unless in a fenced in property or public courtyard on the sabbath. There is an exception, if the area has something called an eruv. Most major Orthodox communities and some minor ones in the US have eruvim (the plural of eruv). I mention Orthodox here, because outside of Orthodox Judaism few Jews follow the laws involving eruvim.

-Muktzei: On shabbos (the sabbath) we are not permitted to handle any item that can only (generally) be used to do something that is forbidden on shabbos. On shabbos we cannot drive, thus under the laws of muktzei we can't handle car keys on shabbos. Guns cannot be used (outside of self defense situations) on shabbos without breaking numerous laws so guns are muktzei. However, this prohibition is fairly "minor" and thus it is pretty easy to get a heter (an excemption) for things like, carrying a gun, if the situation warrants it (one would need to go to a rabbi who is expert on this aspect of Jewish law).

So if one isn't within an eruv, there isn't much one can do. They cannot carry anything out of the house. However, within an eruv one can carry pretty much anything that is otherwise allowed.

However, it sounds (from your other examples) that you are speaking of items that are muktzei. Even more major laws can be broken when a life is at stake. A heter for something more minor, like muktzei, takes a much lower standard. In Israel for instance there is a general heter that allows frum (religious) Jews to carry firearms on shabbos. Here in the US, it would probably depend upon where you were located, but since most Orthodox communities (again, the only ones who really follow these laws) are located in major cities, often in some not so nice neighborhoods, it probably wouldn't be hard to get that heter. I know in Baltimore several Orthodox shuls have members who are supposed to carry guns to provide security to the synagogue, most at the request and not just with the permission of the rabbi. Of course, since the general principle is that guns or knives wouldn't be allowed on shabbos, that isn't necessarily true in a good many cases (again, if you are Jewish and thinking about carrying your gun on shabbos check with a rabbi expert in this area since a lot depends on your locality and your specific situation).

So, while true in principle, your statement isn't 100% correct about guns.

Now another potential stumbling block is that weapons are not allowed by Halacha (Jewish Law) into the sanctuaries of synagogues. The idea is that weapons are meant to destroy life (even if it is in defense) and prayer (which is what is done in the sanctuary) is meant to protect it and so these are at cross purposes. Out of respect one should not bring any weapon into the sanctuary. However, if one must carry a weapon and can't leave it at home (you live in an unsafe area, or your job requires it) there are two possibilities. The best is to find a secure place to store it in the lobby of the shul (or in your car if it isn't shabbos). The other possibility is to bring it into the sanctuary with you but then you are required to keep it covered and concealed, you should never have it in the open in the sanctuary of a synagogue.

So, again, while in principle the ideal is no guns in shul, in practice that isn't always what is required. In addition to life being paramount in general (and thus, if you are in an area where the need to defend it may come up you should have the means to do so), even many of the specific situations where things could get sticky are pretty much covered and you could be OK (again though, it does depend upon your locality and your specific situation).

For everyone else, I apologize if this post seems a bit "technical". While I kept it as basic as possible, I realize many/most here have little interest in the nuances of Halacha (Jewish Law).
 
JPFO has a number of rabbinical figures working for them...perhaps one of us should send them an e-mail.
 
chaim, thanks for your information, it's a learning experiance.
This is great topic, I also live in Minnesota, and the the liberals have gone so far left, the honored statesman, and well known Democrat, Hubert Humphry would probablyly be considered conservatve...
A question, hopefully not to far off topic- how did the ancient laws of Judism get converted and/or interpited to deal with the modern conveniances and lifestyle, is it a local ruling or something larger?

ps anyone know where I can get a spell checker for netscape?:(
 
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