Taking Back the Infantry Half-Kilometer: A critique.

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People that are locked into an every-man-a-DMR fantasy do not understand how infantry combat actually works.

I think that has a lot to do with how many hunters and target marksmen there are on these forums, and that they approach the problem from that POV; not really understanding how different it is when you're being shot at.

Peek my head up for 10 seconds to take an aimed shot

OR

stay behind the heskos and fire 30 unaimed shots around where I think the enemy is.

Pick one.


"It's not like that, you were trained to risk your life...blah blah blah"

Sorry. Spend $5 worth of ammo and not risk my life, or spend $.20 of ammo and maybe get shot. Training or no training, I know what I'm picking. Ammo is plentiful. There's only one of me. Call me a coward if you want. I'm alive and back in the US. And the guys who shot at me are just as dead, even if it took more ammo than it might have otherwise. It's not the Hollywood Hooah Hooah answer, but it's my real answer. Take it or leave it.
 
Fullboar1

Originally Posted by RobGR
If anyones interested here a link to the report on the battle of Wanat: http://usacac.army.mil/cac2/cgsc/car...pubs/Wanat.pdf

There is a lot of detail, but it's basically about COP Kahler, a combat outpost that is attacked and almost overrun. Extremely close fighting. Go to page 141 if you want to read about weapons that were adequate for defense and the failures of other systems, especially when used at full auto for an extended amount of time. Vanity Fair, yes, and other news outlets have written some decent stories about the situation and the survivors. Operation Rock Avalanche, depicted in the movie RESTREPO, also demonstrated that the fighting can become extremely close quarters. Units have been and currently use a range of weapons in Afghanistan, the M14 is no stranger in that theater of war.


Wanat was a joke in that some idiot commander put there FOB smack bang in the middle of a valley surrounded by highground with only 49 US and 24 ANA soldiers protecting it. They also gave them surveillance and air support (Drones) but took them away to fly a "higher priority mission" leaving them totally exposed. End Result 9 US Servicemen dead and 24 wounded, what a waste.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjF9MzI0BEo

Behind every military tragedy is a military failure. There's no doubt Wanat was a tragedy, but the OP was asking about real world data and this was one military paper that may have offered him something about the current engagements in Afghanistan. There's a lot of extraneous passages and it does not necessarily outline specifics, not to mention the continued controversy revolving around the paper, but there it is.
 
If you want to be really impressed, get Vern to talk about artillery. He made a post on the subject over on GRM that should have been printed out on vellum and hung on the wall at the army war college.

If Vern ever writes a book, I'm buying it.



.
 
Have what?

Have it that A-Stan is very different than Nam or any other theaters where close combat was the rule. As was stated by the paper in the very first post. Sometimes I think people just respond without even reading the thread.
 
Ahhh. Well...as a matter of fact, I did read the entire thread...and gave considered thought to what I read...and then decided to reply.

I explained that my personal observations from fighting in the exact same area were that Afghanistan wasn't very different...and that the author of that paper was wrong on that point.

I don't give credence to the anecdotal interview conclusions of a random US Army Major conducting G3 (Division level staff) advisory duties to a completely incapable (and hunkered down) native police force. His observations are frankly contradicted by the experiences of my organization during our conduct of 10+ continuous years of offensive ops since the initial invasion in early 2001. Mostly up close...very close.

BTW: I don't have an axe to grind about necessary wartime staff assignments, having done the exact same advisory job (G3) for a foreign National-level Force HQ whose combat elements (a bit more aggressive than the ANP) engaged in close combat on a weekly basis.

That was a nice little schoolhouse required CGSC paper back when it came out. Mostly a regurgitation of already well canvassed AR15.com type sources, but I'm sure it helped the other Major toward completion of his Jedi Knights syllabus. I'm sure he got an "A" and a gold star.

Sometimes I think people just read threads without comprehension...especially when it comes to a topic like use of rifles in war.

But, I guess comprehension is helped if you were actually in a war...and used one.
 
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briansmithwins,

Good initial post. I missed where you cited SLA Marshall, though, and it's a shame you mentioned him. Real historians have thoroughly debunked Marshall's so-called research- he didn't do all the interviews he claimed. Marshall almost single-handedly derailed US rifle training for 30 years, and is still influencing the uninformed. It seems the few interviews Marshall actually did proved the opposite of what he claimed- under stress, green troops fire too much.

There is this thing called "the myth of the American rifleman" which is a firm espousal that superior US marksmanship has won our wars. Don't get me wrong- the US has frequently had better shots than the majority of our enemies, but we have won by fire superiority ever since our first winning battle with the British, when about 1 shot in 2777 "counted"- and the colonists suffered 2/3 as many casualties, all from friendly fire. Those who won't let go of this myth also usually firmly believe in the M14, which was the least successful general-issue US service rifle ever.

Incidentally, did you read the last "Taking back the Infantry half-km" thread? :rolleyes:

Anyway, if the enemy is at distance, you use a support weapon. All my kills were with mortars. I've evidently been fired upon by the enemy before, and not even been aware we were being shot at. The thing to watch out for, is the occasional good SPG-9 gunner. They'll ruin your day.

I've done little work with the M249, but on my "fam fire" with it, I easily was hitting 600 meter targets with 5-6-round bursts while the drill sergeant kept screaming, "Just shoot! Just shoot!"

John
 
Good initial post. I missed where you cited SLA Marshall, though, and it's a shame you mentioned him. Real historians have thoroughly debunked Marshall's so-called research- he didn't do all the interviews he claimed. Marshall almost single-handedly derailed US rifle training for 30 years, and is still influencing the uninformed. It seems the few interviews Marshall actually did proved the opposite of what he claimed- under stress, green troops fire too much.

You did catch that I cite two different studies? SLA Marshall is only associated with the Korean one. Evaluation of Small Arms Effectiveness Criteria, Vol. 2 was compiled using data from combat photographers, not interviews. It covered WWII, Korea, and Vietnam and also showed most small arms combat takes place under 200m.

Evaluation of Small Arms Effectiveness Criteria, Vol. 2 also has data that shows most of the men fighting were doing so from a standing position and those with automatic weapons were firing bursts of 3-4 rounds.

BSW
 
Good initial post. I missed where you cited SLA Marshall, though, and it's a shame you mentioned him. Real historians have thoroughly debunked Marshall's so-called research- he didn't do all the interviews he claimed. Marshall almost single-handedly derailed US rifle training for 30 years, and is still influencing the uninformed. It seems the few interviews Marshall actually did proved the opposite of what he claimed- under stress, green troops fire too much.
Marshall was a newspaperman, and a Bull Sh*t artist. He never conducted the interviews he claimed, and his writing was sprinkled with easy-to-refute lies -- such as his claim to the "the youngest Second Lieutenant in WWI."

The fascination of his so-called "studies" was that he used numbers. He quantified his claims, which impressed the heck out of everyone. And he did two "studies," one in WWII and one in Korea. And surprise, surprise!! his "study" in Korea confirmed his "study" in WWII!

What always puzzled me was people who accepted his BS never asked, "If only half of our troops are shooting in combat, who the heck is burning up all that ammo?"
 
Given the videos I have seen of forces in Afghanistan fighting at more than a couple of hundred yards, I would be inclined to say that the problem isn't with the M4 or 5.56 ammunition. The problem is hitting the targets.

I keep getting drawn back to this video as an example...
http://atwar.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/04/19/a-firsthand-look-at-firefights-in-marja/?hp

The Sgt. can see "squirters" with his naked eye just fine, yet his Marines seem to be having real issues with landing shots on target despite only being a few hundred yards distant and so probably within their qualification range of 500 yards which is within the range of the platforms being effective. The Marines have ACOGs which means they probably have 4x magnification. Their targets are going to visually be at 125 yards or less because of the magnification. So seeing the targets isn't the issue.

Until getting panicked because of "accurate fire" that "must be from a sniper," the few guys that were shooting were doing so at their convenience and you see several guys that have no qualms with just walking around in the open. Guys moved to and from the low forward firing position with little sign of concern for their safety. Most of the guys in the low forward firing position are seating such that their upper chests and heads are fully exposed. The point I am making here is that in this firefight, the Marines could see their targets with the naked eye and for much of the fight operated fairly openly due to not fearing getting hit, and were able to take shots in a leisurely manner, but were not hitting their targets.

It doesn't really matter what you use if your rounds aren't impacting the target. Heck, you can shoot a frigging ground to ground missile at your opposition, but if it hits the wrong cluster of buildings located several hundred yards off and away from the intended target and kills the wrong people, it isn't going to help you win the battle.

Taking back the half kilometer is doable with the current platform, but at the far end of its capabilities, but it won't matter what platform is being used if the soldiers don't have the training and marksmanship skills to be able to actually hit their intended targets and to be able to hit moving targets. Leading a charge of three steps and yelling "C'mon let's go let's go" and firing from the shoulder at the same time isn't likely to be putting rounds on target either.

Before anyone notes CJ Chivers is part of the liberal media who doesn't know what he is talking about, he does. While he did graduate from the Columbia Graduate School of Journalism and is a Pulitzer Prize winning NY Times journalist, prior to his current career he had graduated Cornell in 1987, joined the USMC and was an infantry officer until 1994 and along the way graduated the Army's Ranger School and was in the first Gulf War or left the military as a captain.

I was watching Bomb Patrol Afghanistan. The convoy had come under attack and folks are firing from directly operated .30 and .50 caliber machineguns, and indirectly operated (fire by wire) .30 and .50 caliber guns sighted with termal cameras and having considerable magnification. The fire by wire guns were fired from the safety of armored vehicles that afforded ballistic protection. From the thermal cam video, you can see the targeting crosshairs and the impacts of the rounds. Despite being able to see the targets and seeing where the rounds were hitting, fire wasn't being corrected and so the Taliban fighters weren't getting shot. Distances were well within the effective ranges of the guns. If you don't hit your target, then you can't be as effective in neutralizing the threat.
 
This is why we have to regard combat shooting as a collective or team effort.

The officers and NCOs must designate the sectors of fire, assign targets as appropriate, and supervise the shooting.

What looks like easy targets isn't really all that easy -- targets often appear and disappear before someone can get off an accurate shot. The cure to this is:

1. Assigning sectors and limiting those sectors (using the box system I wrote about earlier.) This puts more eyes on the target -- with sectors assigned, the odds are that when a target appears in the box, someone is looking and ready to shoot.

2. Using collective fires -- the officer or NCO spots a fleeting target and designates "everyone shoot at this target." Individual soldiers "work" the target -- firing at and around it, so when it reappears, it stands a good chance of getting hit.
 
I feel compelled to point out that each rifleman that armed with a 7.62 NATO rifle with a magnified optic is one that's less effective in the 200m and under fire fight.

The other point I would make is that troops do not fight alone, but as a squad. The squad MGs proved to be more effective at longer ranges in the Korean only data. The Effectiveness of Small Arms study didn't break down the effective ranges by weapon type.

BSW

I don't think having 7.62 NATO FAL's hurt the Rhodesian forces inside 200m. I think the Rhodesians were quite glad they had 7.62 NATO and the worlds best battle rifle. Of course they werent using optics, and they may have had the barrel chopped down to around 16 inchs. A substantial amount of African communist terrorists knows just exactly how lethal those Rhodesians were, there mothers also, unless there mothers were killed too.
 
I don't believe small optics or low power scopes as a disadvantage but I don't see them being that awesome either, call me old fashion but I still think irons are the way to go inside 250 yards. At least for me on these less then adaquinte ranges on Riley with all sorts of dips and stuff I hit those targets the most and the fastest with irons maybe that's me lol.
 
I don't think having 7.62 NATO FAL's hurt the Rhodesian forces inside 200m. I think the Rhodesians were quite glad they had 7.62 NATO and the worlds best battle rifle. Of course they werent using optics, and they may have had the barrel chopped down to around 16 inchs. A substantial amount of African communist terrorists knows just exactly how lethal those Rhodesians were, there mothers also, unless there mothers were killed too.

I'm sure having, and regularly training in, a systematic rifleman cover-shoot doctrine helped really getting the most of of that system.

Anyways, fascinating thread...
 
That study is typical big Army thinking of throwing hardware at a software problem. They will spend billions of dollars on equipment for a problem that a few million dollars worth of training and ammunition could fix.

Our current rifles/carbines can easily kill at 500 meters. Doesn't mean our warfighters can. That is a long shot in a combat situation and I would expect a vast majority of rifle shots to miss at that range. But that's why we have machine guns.
 
Our current rifles/carbines can easily kill at 500 meters. Doesn't mean our warfighters can. That is a long shot in a combat situation and I would expect a vast majority of rifle shots to miss at that range. But that's why we have machine guns.

agreed. not to mention other useful items.
 
I find it hard to believe anyone thinks having a scope is a disadvantage inside 200 yards.

Depends on the scope. If we are talking a 4x12 variable scope and fighting inside a building, I'd rather not have it at all, cuz it's going to get me killed.

If we're talking a 1x red dot at the same ranges, please sir, may I have one very much, thank you.

Scope can mean a lot of things to different people.

BSW
 
If you want to be really impressed, get Vern to talk about artillery. He made a post on the subject over on GRM that should have been printed out on vellum and hung on the wall at the army war college.
Got a link?
 
I call bad representation of U.S. fighting doctrine on that video. Oh, I have no doubt it's real and I have no doubt of the reporters creds. I also doubt these Marines were praised by their superiors when this hit the airwaves. Classic example of what NOT to do.

While the myth of the American Rifleman is just that, there is something to be said for deliberate fire and consistent fire. Popping off a round or two every minute at your leisure is hardly going to win a fire fight.

See the previous comments about designated sectors of fire by Vern and Double Nought.

Take a few competent riflemen, addd in a capable and experience leader at the squad level with current equipment and you can positively own a given piece of ground. Take those same men, remove drive and skill, give them mediocre leadership and what you get is a stalemate at best.

"It's got to be a sniper!" So? he spent several minutes shooting and not hitting. Put several guns on him and kill him. While the potency of the round has been hotly debated (I, however, have no qualms using it) the 5.56 round from the M-16 and M-4 are very capable of hitting accurately out to 500 meters.
 
That study is typical big Army thinking of throwing hardware at a software problem. They will spend billions of dollars on equipment for a problem that a few million dollars worth of training and ammunition could fix.

Same old story.
 
Take a few competent riflemen, addd in a capable and experience leader at the squad level with current equipment and you can positively own a given piece of ground. Take those same men, remove drive and skill, give them mediocre leadership and what you get is a stalemate at best.

Take a look at what it takes to get promoted and what it takes to get awards overseas and you'll quickly see why mediocre leadership is pretty much the standard.
 
In that video of the Marines, the reporte says several hundred yards. I am not sure how far he means but it looks like both sides are occupying position beyond normal range and don't
Really expect hits on either side. By accurate fire they seem to mean the bullets are flying near them which they would not expect at the range they were at. Note one guy was wounded. In my experience that is what some of battles are like. There is no realistic opportunity for aimed shots. I don't get there firing positions. Maybe they are so loaded up with equipment they cannot take normal firing positions. I would guess they would act differently if they were in effective range and could effectively engage with rifle fire. I am just guessing.
 
The infantry already exercises a lot of authority at ranges past 300 meters. It's called a 7.62x51mm belt-fed MG.

I've done little work with the M249, but on my "fam fire" with it, I easily was hitting 600 meter targets with 5-6-round bursts while the drill sergeant kept screaming, "Just shoot! Just shoot!"

During my "fam fire" with the 240B I simply stopped shooting at anything inside of 200 meters. I was taking single shots at 300-400 meter targets and slapping them almost every time. Short bursts and a little "kentucky windage" as we hill folk call it resulted in hits in excess of 600 yards pretty easily. I got yelled at for not shooting any close targets because they were the "bigger threat," but there were plenty of other guys shooting at them. They were just too easy to hit.
This was training, not combat. Still, we have the tools to own the mythical "half-kilometer" right now just as it is. The skills are all that is lacking in some cases.
 
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I agree goon, my favorite weapon was the M60. Not that I wasn't fond of the M2
50 cal., M-16, M-14, and M-79.
 
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